4 ms·

This might actually be a good thing. For the longest time, very few people cared about privacy issues, which is why we live in a privacy hellscape today. If AI

by bogwog 3y ago

This might actually be a good thing. For the longest time, very few people cared about privacy issues, which is why we live in a privacy hellscape today. If AI fears can motivate people to start taking privacy issues seriously, then we might actually see some strong privacy legislation, or more privacy-focused businesses to meet new demand. (or maybe I'm just being overly optimistic)

distant_hat 3y ago
These are really niche issues and most people aren't even aware, let alone care about this. The only real solution to this is some kind of legislation that makes it difficult to carry on with business as usual. I wonder how this data collection squares with GDPR?
- bogwog 3y ago
  > These are really niche issues and most people aren't even aware, let alone care about this. Everyone seems to be aware of the protests in Hollywood, and I don't think it's too much of a stretch to tie that to privacy issues. Those AI models taking artists' jobs were trained with data scraped from the internet. Even if you aren't an artist, there's a risk that the data these companies collect on you will be used to train an AI model that will take your job, so you shouldn't be giving it away for free.
  - ollien 3y ago
    I do think that's a bit of a stretch. Regardless of your opinions on the ethics of AI companies training on scraped data, how is scraping publicly available artistic works a privacy issue? Me, personally, I might call it unethical and undesirable, but I wouldn't call it an issue of "privacy" on its face.
  - barbariangrunge 3y ago
    There’s no union of people vs surveillance tech to act on our behalf
- landemva 3y ago
  > The only real solution to this is some kind of legislation that makes it difficult to carry on with business as usual. I have watched the voluntary full body scans at TSA checkpoints for years and have concluded people do not care to opt out of any data collection. The people don't care, or how many people do you see opting out of full body scans at TSA? People gleefully pose for TSA's new and voluntary facial recognition. People go along with coercion even by government, so why do you think we can rely on government to solve privacy issues?
  - dijit 3y ago
    Ha! I get so much shit from my partner because I refuse to go through those scanners. I don't make a big scene about it, but it's fun to note how much social pressure there is to just follow. Most Airports are actually totally fine with the opt-out, except the British ones for some reason. "You won't always be able to opt out y'know" - yes mate, but then I probably won't fly anymore.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > "You won't always be able to opt out y'know" What a strange thing to say. Maybe not, but you are able to opt out right now, and that's what matters most at that moment.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    > how many people do you see opting out of full body scans at TSA They're all in the pre-check line.
    - landemva 3y ago
      An airline put me in precheck a few years ago due to FF status. Now it requires an application to government and fingerprint. And global entry (immigration) wants an eyeball scan. Biometric collection to avoid a TSA massage is not privacy.
      - kube-system 3y ago
thefurdrake 3y ago
I'm still holding out from the days when basically everyone on the internet understood you shouldn't post intimate details about your life online (the age before social ~~cancer~~ media). I long for a return to common sense. Maybe AI will do the trick, but I doubt it. Plenty of people are happy with behavioral prediction if it means convenience without caring about the implications.
- tivert 3y ago
  > I long for a return to common sense. Maybe AI will do the trick, but I doubt it. Plenty of people are happy with behavioral prediction if it means convenience without caring about the implications. The general population isn't going to care about "privacy" in the abstract, that kind of thinking reserved for an activist fringe. IMHO, the only way any progress will every be made on such abstract things is activists influencing government to force the changes. The general population will respond to realistic fear and danger, though (e.g. witness all the rituals people do to avoid identity theft). Maybe the best way forward is to cultivate fear in people of losing their livelihood to AI, and present these privacy invasions as an attack on that front.
  - xnx 3y ago
    > The general population isn't going to care about "privacy" in the abstract, Totally agree. It's better to frame it in terms of "Nvidia tracks every porn site you visit and what you do there" or "company x knows everything you buy online and sells it to anyone who can pay".
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Well, be careful how you word it. At the core of the problem, nobody has control over their devices. If you beat a drum complaining about Nvidia having DMA access then you have to go after Apple and Microsoft next, which would probably lead to most people getting confused. If they found out about PRISM or XKeyscore, they would probably feel hopeless and give up. Treating privacy in the abstract is how you help people meaningfully resist it. In the literal sense, we can do very little to ensure our privacy on consumer hardware.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
It's great that the bourgeoisie are treating workers so poorly: maybe soon we can start eating them in public! I don't feel optimistic about any of this. What we know already is that safety should not be determined by the boundary of "what people take seriously".

by bogwog 3y ago

distant_hat 3y ago

These are really niche issues and most people aren't even aware, let alone care about this. The only real solution to this is some kind of legislation that makes it difficult to carry on with business as usual. I wonder how this data collection squares with GDPR?

bogwog 3y ago
> These are really niche issues and most people aren't even aware, let alone care about this. Everyone seems to be aware of the protests in Hollywood, and I don't think it's too much of a stretch to tie that to privacy issues. Those AI models taking artists' jobs were trained with data scraped from the internet. Even if you aren't an artist, there's a risk that the data these companies collect on you will be used to train an AI model that will take your job, so you shouldn't be giving it away for free.
- ollien 3y ago
  I do think that's a bit of a stretch. Regardless of your opinions on the ethics of AI companies training on scraped data, how is scraping publicly available artistic works a privacy issue? Me, personally, I might call it unethical and undesirable, but I wouldn't call it an issue of "privacy" on its face.
- barbariangrunge 3y ago
  There’s no union of people vs surveillance tech to act on our behalf
landemva 3y ago
> The only real solution to this is some kind of legislation that makes it difficult to carry on with business as usual. I have watched the voluntary full body scans at TSA checkpoints for years and have concluded people do not care to opt out of any data collection. The people don't care, or how many people do you see opting out of full body scans at TSA? People gleefully pose for TSA's new and voluntary facial recognition. People go along with coercion even by government, so why do you think we can rely on government to solve privacy issues?
- dijit 3y ago
  Ha! I get so much shit from my partner because I refuse to go through those scanners. I don't make a big scene about it, but it's fun to note how much social pressure there is to just follow. Most Airports are actually totally fine with the opt-out, except the British ones for some reason. "You won't always be able to opt out y'know" - yes mate, but then I probably won't fly anymore.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > "You won't always be able to opt out y'know" What a strange thing to say. Maybe not, but you are able to opt out right now, and that's what matters most at that moment.
- kube-system 3y ago
  > how many people do you see opting out of full body scans at TSA They're all in the pre-check line.
  - landemva 3y ago
    An airline put me in precheck a few years ago due to FF status. Now it requires an application to government and fingerprint. And global entry (immigration) wants an eyeball scan. Biometric collection to avoid a TSA massage is not privacy.
    - kube-system 3y ago

thefurdrake 3y ago

I'm still holding out from the days when basically everyone on the internet understood you shouldn't post intimate details about your life online (the age before social ~~cancer~~ media). I long for a return to common sense. Maybe AI will do the trick, but I doubt it. Plenty of people are happy with behavioral prediction if it means convenience without caring about the implications.

tivert 3y ago
> I long for a return to common sense. Maybe AI will do the trick, but I doubt it. Plenty of people are happy with behavioral prediction if it means convenience without caring about the implications. The general population isn't going to care about "privacy" in the abstract, that kind of thinking reserved for an activist fringe. IMHO, the only way any progress will every be made on such abstract things is activists influencing government to force the changes. The general population will respond to realistic fear and danger, though (e.g. witness all the rituals people do to avoid identity theft). Maybe the best way forward is to cultivate fear in people of losing their livelihood to AI, and present these privacy invasions as an attack on that front.
- xnx 3y ago
  > The general population isn't going to care about "privacy" in the abstract, Totally agree. It's better to frame it in terms of "Nvidia tracks every porn site you visit and what you do there" or "company x knows everything you buy online and sells it to anyone who can pay".
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Well, be careful how you word it. At the core of the problem, nobody has control over their devices. If you beat a drum complaining about Nvidia having DMA access then you have to go after Apple and Microsoft next, which would probably lead to most people getting confused. If they found out about PRISM or XKeyscore, they would probably feel hopeless and give up. Treating privacy in the abstract is how you help people meaningfully resist it. In the literal sense, we can do very little to ensure our privacy on consumer hardware.

thomastjeffery 3y ago

It's great that the bourgeoisie are treating workers so poorly: maybe soon we can start eating them in public! I don't feel optimistic about any of this. What we know already is that safety should not be determined by the boundary of "what people take seriously".