3 ms·

In The Netherlands the government tries to buy out farmers and they have to promise not to start a farm elsewhere in the EU.

by wsc981 3y ago

myshpa 3y ago
> In The Netherlands the government tries to buy out farmers You're right, I've read about that. > they have to promise not to start a farm elsewhere They can farm elsewhere, but not in animal agriculture, right? I may be wrong, but imho they can still get into plant farming, like growing vegetables, fruits or agroforestry. It would not be very logical otherwise.
- wsc981 3y ago
  I think the Dutch government is concerned about use of fertilizer as well (nitrogen emissions?), so they prefer farmers to just stop, is my understanding. The Dutch government set a really high bar for itself regarding reduction in nitrogen emissions (much higher than required by EU regulations) which is why farmers must go. Germany and Belgium allow for much higher nitrogen emissions, so it's not really a concern in these neighbouring countries.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    There are regenerative methods of farming not dependend on animals, fertilizers, pesticides or herbicides. Syntropic, natural, veganic farming, to name just a few.
    - wsc981 3y ago
      Probably. I'd guess using some fertiliser can't be bad either, maybe not overdoing it? I live in Thailand & my girlfriend got a farm. She does use fertiliser (poo from pigs, I sometimes have to carry the bags). And she avoids pesticides and herbicides, so we can eat more organic. Buying veggies and fruits at the local markets in Thailand will contain many pesticides - not great for long term health I'm sure.
RetroTechie 3y ago
Ehm yes... some perspective: (2019 figures from the Wiki) 97 million chicken 12 million pigs 4 million (mostly milk) cows In a densely populated country of 18m people. Roughly half the surface area is agricultural land. And in summer, half if not more of that is either grass, or corn. This is not used to feed people! (minor fraction of agri land). It's used to feed cows & pigs. Chicken and extra cattle feed mostly comes from elsewhere, like soy from South America. All that milk, eggs & meat is not used to feed the Dutch! Something like 2/3 (if not 3/4) goes to export. A lot of it in the form of cheese. A historic argument for this was that it provides jobs & income for the country. These days, something like 1 in 50 (if not 1 in 100) of jobs is in agriculture. It's highly mechanized & intensive agriculture + cattle-keeping. All this agri business produces some 2% (if not less) of GDP. Many grey-haired farmers want out, and/or their kids (if they have any) seek different careers. That's on top of all the peppers grown under glass, flower bulbs, potatoes, etc. Plus raw materials (fertilizers, cattle feed) imported from elsewhere, nitrogen compounds & methane emissions, pressure on nature areas, cow/pig/chicken poop masses & what to do with it, animal welfare issues, and the land use in densely populated country with housing problem & too little / small natural areas. So yeah, many Dutch ppl want that cattle heap cut... Move cows to where there's space for them. Long overdue imho.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Agree 100%. > Roughly half the surface area is agricultural land That's true almost everywhere (50% of habitable land is agriculture, animal farming then 80% of that). https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use > Move cows to where there's space for them And that's supposed to be where? :) https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land-Use-01.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land... We can't cut forests forever. Biodiversity is at all time low. Animal species have seen 70% decline in the last 50 years, insects are down by 80%, sharks by 90%, wild birds are one third of the poultry in weight, ...). https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/
- brutusborn 3y ago
  If so many farmers “want out” then why are the protests so widespread?

In The Netherlands the government tries to buy out farmers and they have to promise not to start a farm elsewhere in the EU.

by wsc981 3y ago

In The Netherlands the government tries to buy out farmers and they have to promise not to start a farm elsewhere in the EU.

myshpa 3y ago

> In The Netherlands the government tries to buy out farmers You're right, I've read about that. > they have to promise not to start a farm elsewhere They can farm elsewhere, but not in animal agriculture, right? I may be wrong, but imho they can still get into plant farming, like growing vegetables, fruits or agroforestry. It would not be very logical otherwise.

wsc981 3y ago
I think the Dutch government is concerned about use of fertilizer as well (nitrogen emissions?), so they prefer farmers to just stop, is my understanding. The Dutch government set a really high bar for itself regarding reduction in nitrogen emissions (much higher than required by EU regulations) which is why farmers must go. Germany and Belgium allow for much higher nitrogen emissions, so it's not really a concern in these neighbouring countries.
- myshpa 3y ago
  There are regenerative methods of farming not dependend on animals, fertilizers, pesticides or herbicides. Syntropic, natural, veganic farming, to name just a few.
  - wsc981 3y ago
    Probably. I'd guess using some fertiliser can't be bad either, maybe not overdoing it? I live in Thailand & my girlfriend got a farm. She does use fertiliser (poo from pigs, I sometimes have to carry the bags). And she avoids pesticides and herbicides, so we can eat more organic. Buying veggies and fruits at the local markets in Thailand will contain many pesticides - not great for long term health I'm sure.

RetroTechie 3y ago

Ehm yes... some perspective: (2019 figures from the Wiki) 97 million chicken 12 million pigs 4 million (mostly milk) cows In a densely populated country of 18m people. Roughly half the surface area is agricultural land. And in summer, half if not more of that is either grass, or corn. This is not used to feed people! (minor fraction of agri land). It's used to feed cows & pigs. Chicken and extra cattle feed mostly comes from elsewhere, like soy from South America. All that milk, eggs & meat is not used to feed the Dutch! Something like 2/3 (if not 3/4) goes to export. A lot of it in the form of cheese. A historic argument for this was that it provides jobs & income for the country. These days, something like 1 in 50 (if not 1 in 100) of jobs is in agriculture. It's highly mechanized & intensive agriculture + cattle-keeping. All this agri business produces some 2% (if not less) of GDP. Many grey-haired farmers want out, and/or their kids (if they have any) seek different careers. That's on top of all the peppers grown under glass, flower bulbs, potatoes, etc. Plus raw materials (fertilizers, cattle feed) imported from elsewhere, nitrogen compounds & methane emissions, pressure on nature areas, cow/pig/chicken poop masses & what to do with it, animal welfare issues, and the land use in densely populated country with housing problem & too little / small natural areas. So yeah, many Dutch ppl want that cattle heap cut... Move cows to where there's space for them. Long overdue imho.

myshpa 3y ago
Agree 100%. > Roughly half the surface area is agricultural land That's true almost everywhere (50% of habitable land is agriculture, animal farming then 80% of that). https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use > Move cows to where there's space for them And that's supposed to be where? :) https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land-Use-01.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World-Map-by-Land... We can't cut forests forever. Biodiversity is at all time low. Animal species have seen 70% decline in the last 50 years, insects are down by 80%, sharks by 90%, wild birds are one third of the poultry in weight, ...). https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/
brutusborn 3y ago
If so many farmers “want out” then why are the protests so widespread?