4 ms·

Sidenote: I know a bunch of people from Crimea and many things we take for granted are surprisingly complex for them. People from Cuba or Iran at least have the

by euazOn 3y ago

Sidenote: I know a bunch of people from Crimea and many things we take for granted are surprisingly complex for them. People from Cuba or Iran at least have the certainty of which country they are in.

varispeed 3y ago
Crimea is in Ukraine.
- dijit 3y ago
  Yet, if you lived there you would be issued a Russian passport, your official documents would be from the Russian state; your police would be Russian. And; if you lived in Laos, Cuba, Cambodia or Afganistan: you would currently be taking the opposite stance. We owe it to ourselves to not permit the affectations of propaganda to convince us that we are consistently right, the truth on the ground is much more complicated. I certainly believe Crimea is an invaded territory of Ukraine, but I cannot pretend that it's a wise notion to demerit the entire conflict down to "Crimea is in Ukraine". It does nothing to help the people there, and is completely meaningless in the face of my initial comment: that while I could sell games to Ukrainians, I could not allow them to play from within Crimea... a territory you claim; is Ukraine. The implicit argument you just made is that we have created sanctions against Ukraine itself.
  - Entalpi 3y ago
    Crimea is de jure in Ukraine per international consensus. Crimea is de facto occupied by Russia. These are orthogonal statements are both valid. Everything else you listed derives from these premises.
  - varispeed 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - leesalminen 3y ago
      Are you saying these passports can’t be used for travel? If they weren’t, then why would anyone bother going to get one?
      - mike_d 3y ago
        The Crimean issued passports are accepted only by Russia and other occupied areas such as South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Practically they are required for many domestic tasks, and Russia won't let you leave the region with a real passport so you need one to get out. The European Union has emphasized to its member states that possession of one of these "passports" should also expedite the issuance of a humanitarian/refugee passport.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - philwelch 3y ago
      If you really want to fight about this, Ukraine’s military is accepting foreign volunteers.
      - pessimizer 3y ago
        Yes. Zelensky has made it clear that they have lots of equipment and arms (although they'd love to have more.) What they need is foreign volunteers to fight.
    - michaelt 3y ago
      > And then you are trying to legitimise the Russian invasion. In this conflict, I agree with you 100% - fuck Putin. On the other hand, many international organisations don't recognise Taiwan as a country, whereas in my mind it's clearly a country for obvious reasons. So I don't consider international recognition to be the be-all-and-end-all of which borders lie where.
    - concordDance 3y ago
      > These documents are illegal and have no meaning. "No meaning"? That seems like a meaningless statement. > And then you are trying to legitimise the Russian invasion. Not everyone is a soldier in your ideological (and literal in this case) war. People can have nuanced views for nuanced reasons.
  - mynameishere 3y ago
    Russian passport, your official documents would be from the Russian state; your police would be Russian And, most likely, your personal allegiance would be Russian.
    - nabakin 3y ago
      While this is a provocative response and there is no excuse for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the 2001 Ukrainian census[1] states 60.4% of the Crimean population considered themselves Russian and 24% of the Crimean population considered themselves Ukrainian. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea#Ethnicities_and_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea#Ethnici...
      - iudqnolq 3y ago
        Obviously it's impossible to do a reasonably unskewed poll in Crimea right now. However in other parts of Ukraine the number of people who consider themselves Russian drastically decreased when Russia started shelling their homes. So it's not clear how informative 2001 polls would be. Russia has also deliberately encouraged Russians to move to Crimea recently which would also skew that statistic.
        nabakin 3y ago
        You make some good points. I agree, any census done after Russia took Ukraine in 2014 can't be used and I don't doubt people who once considered themselves Russian started to consider themselves Ukrainian after Russia attacked Ukraine, but this was before all that so I don't think that's a problem. And I'm not saying considering yourself Russian means you have allegiance to Russia, but I think there is a strong correlation between the two. Even if there's less of a correlation than I think, the percentage which considers themselves Russian is over twice that of the percentage which considers themselves Ukrainian. Maybe the Tatars align more with Ukraine than Russia, improving the balance, but idk.
      - hvis 3y ago
        Whether the people considered themselves to be "Russian" or not, in 1991 54% of voters in Crimea came out in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_re... Even though you have the results of "demographics" survey of 1989 that put "Russian" populace at 67%.
- veave 3y ago
  That's disputed (literally :P)
- ChumpGPT 3y ago
  [flagged]
- concordDance 3y ago
  Country borders are made up. While this is most obvious when looking at Africa it is also true everywhere else.

by euazOn 3y ago

varispeed 3y ago

Crimea is in Ukraine.

dijit 3y ago
Yet, if you lived there you would be issued a Russian passport, your official documents would be from the Russian state; your police would be Russian. And; if you lived in Laos, Cuba, Cambodia or Afganistan: you would currently be taking the opposite stance. We owe it to ourselves to not permit the affectations of propaganda to convince us that we are consistently right, the truth on the ground is much more complicated. I certainly believe Crimea is an invaded territory of Ukraine, but I cannot pretend that it's a wise notion to demerit the entire conflict down to "Crimea is in Ukraine". It does nothing to help the people there, and is completely meaningless in the face of my initial comment: that while I could sell games to Ukrainians, I could not allow them to play from within Crimea... a territory you claim; is Ukraine. The implicit argument you just made is that we have created sanctions against Ukraine itself.
- Entalpi 3y ago
  Crimea is de jure in Ukraine per international consensus. Crimea is de facto occupied by Russia. These are orthogonal statements are both valid. Everything else you listed derives from these premises.
- varispeed 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - leesalminen 3y ago
    Are you saying these passports can’t be used for travel? If they weren’t, then why would anyone bother going to get one?
    - mike_d 3y ago
      The Crimean issued passports are accepted only by Russia and other occupied areas such as South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Practically they are required for many domestic tasks, and Russia won't let you leave the region with a real passport so you need one to get out. The European Union has emphasized to its member states that possession of one of these "passports" should also expedite the issuance of a humanitarian/refugee passport.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - philwelch 3y ago
    If you really want to fight about this, Ukraine’s military is accepting foreign volunteers.
    - pessimizer 3y ago
      Yes. Zelensky has made it clear that they have lots of equipment and arms (although they'd love to have more.) What they need is foreign volunteers to fight.
  - michaelt 3y ago
    > And then you are trying to legitimise the Russian invasion. In this conflict, I agree with you 100% - fuck Putin. On the other hand, many international organisations don't recognise Taiwan as a country, whereas in my mind it's clearly a country for obvious reasons. So I don't consider international recognition to be the be-all-and-end-all of which borders lie where.
  - concordDance 3y ago
    > These documents are illegal and have no meaning. "No meaning"? That seems like a meaningless statement. > And then you are trying to legitimise the Russian invasion. Not everyone is a soldier in your ideological (and literal in this case) war. People can have nuanced views for nuanced reasons.
- mynameishere 3y ago
  Russian passport, your official documents would be from the Russian state; your police would be Russian And, most likely, your personal allegiance would be Russian.
  - nabakin 3y ago
    While this is a provocative response and there is no excuse for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the 2001 Ukrainian census[1] states 60.4% of the Crimean population considered themselves Russian and 24% of the Crimean population considered themselves Ukrainian. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea#Ethnicities_and_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea#Ethnici...
    - iudqnolq 3y ago
      Obviously it's impossible to do a reasonably unskewed poll in Crimea right now. However in other parts of Ukraine the number of people who consider themselves Russian drastically decreased when Russia started shelling their homes. So it's not clear how informative 2001 polls would be. Russia has also deliberately encouraged Russians to move to Crimea recently which would also skew that statistic.
      - nabakin 3y ago
        You make some good points. I agree, any census done after Russia took Ukraine in 2014 can't be used and I don't doubt people who once considered themselves Russian started to consider themselves Ukrainian after Russia attacked Ukraine, but this was before all that so I don't think that's a problem. And I'm not saying considering yourself Russian means you have allegiance to Russia, but I think there is a strong correlation between the two. Even if there's less of a correlation than I think, the percentage which considers themselves Russian is over twice that of the percentage which considers themselves Ukrainian. Maybe the Tatars align more with Ukraine than Russia, improving the balance, but idk.
    - hvis 3y ago
      Whether the people considered themselves to be "Russian" or not, in 1991 54% of voters in Crimea came out in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_re... Even though you have the results of "demographics" survey of 1989 that put "Russian" populace at 67%.
veave 3y ago
That's disputed (literally :P)
ChumpGPT 3y ago
[flagged]
concordDance 3y ago
Country borders are made up. While this is most obvious when looking at Africa it is also true everywhere else.