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Entirely unsurprising - we know Amazon uses their own ARM CPUs internally for large swathes of AWS infra and services. None of the other cloud providers are us

Entirely unsurprising - we know Amazon uses their own ARM CPUs internally for large swathes of AWS infra and services. None of the other cloud providers are using ARM at this scale yet. They’re using Ampere chips, whereas Amazon invested in building their own - it tells you the level of commitment Amazon have here. My employer is moving workloads to ARM on AWS as it’s much better for price/perf, and our shiny new M1/M2 Macs run the same binaries. We’ve had very little issue doing the shift - Amazon Linux and Debian both support ARM well. Must be really putting a dent in Intel’s data centre sales though.

TheDong 3y ago
> and our shiny new M1/M2 Macs run the same binaries Does that mean you're all running asahi linux, or are you somehow running linux elf binaries on macOS? Or are you using VMs, just like the x86 + docker desktop folks are doing to run the same binaries on their laptops and servers?
- minimaul 3y ago
  VMs through things like Docker for Mac, in our case. And yes - it’s exactly the same as you can do if you use x86 servers and dev machines. It’s just the fact that we can also do this for ARM on hardware that doesn’t suck that makes using ARM in production more practical for us.
  - bravura 3y ago
    Sorry I missed the details: "Does that mean you're all running asahi linux or are you somehow running linux elf binaries on macOS?" So you're running whatever linux districtuion you want or some particular flavor through Docker on Mac? And you don't have ELF binaries because you're using precompiled packages for ARM and don't need weirdo prebuilt ELFs, or you have a workaround?
    - minimaul 3y ago
      We deploy containers to production, and use variants of the same containers for local development - mostly Debian. Those containers contain a mix of custom built software and packages from the distro.
    - Fnoord 3y ago
      Docker for Mac runs a full-blown Linux kernel last time I checked (Docker for Windows can use Windows containers). So whatever OS they run on the cloud (with OCI) these containers are going to work on the (very fast) M1/M2. The OS the Docker images are using is irrelevant. The OS running in the cloud is irrelevant. Only relevant factor is Docker for Mac as it means Linux kernel overhead. But this is offset by M1/M2. Clever setup!
      - minimaul 3y ago
        Exactly this. Plus as the Apple virtualisation framework now implements pretty standard virtual hardware - it uses virtio - we are finding things work vastly better in Docker for Mac - particularly as we can use virtiofs etc to pass files through from the host.
      - happymellon 3y ago
        > Docker for Windows can use Windows containers I thought Windows containers never went anywhere. Interesting to hear that they are still a thing.
        thedougd 3y ago
        Yes, but pretty much in the same sad state as they were a few years ago. We're running a few in production and next time we touch it we're replacing them with Windows Server Core EC2 instances built from baked images. Note on Linux containers: Running Linux containers on Windows requires the use of LinuxKit or WSL. Docker Desktop for Windows requires you switch modes between Linux container mode and Windows container mode as you can't run both simultaneously. A workaround is to install an additional Docker daemon inside the WSL environment. Most people are going to install Docker Desktop and use WSL in Linux mode. It's fine. Hopefully my facts are up-to-date.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Just as an aside, the same process works painlessly with podman, too, if your employer is allergic to Docker. Maybe once or twice a year I get reminded that I’m not using x86 - and it sure is nice to work all day and finish with 60% battery.
    - robbintt 3y ago
      Is this battery savings from using podman instead of docker for mac or using docker for max with M1/M2?
      - acdha 3y ago
        Running on ARM itself is a big power savings. Docker Desktop also had issues with CPU load which they might have improved since I stopped using it a couple of years ago. There were a bunch of GitHub issues starting around 2018 which were closed, moved, reopened, and it looks like it’s still a concern whereas with Podman I’ve been able to use it without thinking about it.
- aragilar 3y ago
  asahi linux is only needed if you are running on the bare metal. A VM (which abstracts the hardware) means you can run existing ARM64 binaries.
- dikei 3y ago
  You still need VM to run Linux ELF on macOS, but you don't need to use full-blown emulation like QEMU if the Linux ELF is for AARCH64, unlike when you try to run x86 ELF. It's much faster this way.
- mcqueenjordan 3y ago
  I assume he just meant running binaries compiled for the same ISA / processor architecture.
ignoramous 3y ago
> None of the other cloud providers are using ARM at this scale yet. They’re using Ampere chips, whereas Amazon invested in building their own - it tells you the level of commitment Amazon have here. James Hamilton was adamant AWS build ARM expertise in-house [0] (one which they accelerated by acquiring Annapurna Labs), and he's been proven right [1] despite the obstacles he himself foresaw [2]. [0] On the Origins of AWS Custom Silicon, https://archive.is/4k5ul https://archive.is/4k5ul [1] Low cost, low power servers for Internet-scale services, https://mvdirona.com/jrh/talksandpapers/JamesHamilton_CEMS.pdf https://mvdirona.com/jrh/talksandpapers/JamesHamilton_CEMS.p... [2] AWS Designed Processor: Graviton, https://archive.is/WLFBW https://archive.is/WLFBW
- pdpi 3y ago
  > and he's been proven right despite the obstacles he himself foresaw I wouldn't trust anybody to be right about the benefits of something this big if they don't also foresee the obstacles you'll face to realise those benefits.
picadores 3y ago
Smaller dent then selling trampolin patches that take a already sold good and multiply the performance with a factor of 0.75.
adfskghnmionio 3y ago
>My employer is moving workloads to ARM on AWS as it’s much better for price/perf It's a fool's errand to try to reason about Amazon's pricing. We don't have figures about how much a Graviton costs to build or to run, but we do know AWS has staggeringly high margins across the board. They have huge headroom to make price cuts if they want their homegrown solution to win. And perhaps it is better! I have no doubt it's a good CPU. But we can't infer that from pricing.
- TechBro8615 3y ago
  It could also be simultaneously true that it's cheaper to rent ARM servers from AWS than it is to rent Intel servers from them, and that AWS makes more money renting you the ARM servers. In fact, given they're developed in house, it might even be likely that the ARM margins are higher for them than their Intel margins.
  - adfskghnmionio 3y ago
    [dead]
- minimaul 3y ago
  Quite right - you can't infer performance from pricing. We did some assessments of how well our applications ran on ARM and x86 based AWS instances, and quite simply it costs us less to serve the same quantities of end user traffic using Amazon's ARM instances compared to the x86 ones.
tracker1 3y ago
I think ARM and AMD both are starting to cut deep into Intel's market share. I do think Ampere is a bit higher priced than I'd be comfortable with if I were setting up servers. The AMD 128-core Zen 4c server chip is very impressive in terms of per-core power use and on par on power usage with ARM even. Incredible amount of computing capacity per u in the racks at this point on both fronts. Intel is betting on custom accelerators, but I don't know how well that fits on a rental (cloud) model unless you get a full server/cpu.

TheDong 3y ago

> and our shiny new M1/M2 Macs run the same binaries Does that mean you're all running asahi linux, or are you somehow running linux elf binaries on macOS? Or are you using VMs, just like the x86 + docker desktop folks are doing to run the same binaries on their laptops and servers?

minimaul 3y ago
VMs through things like Docker for Mac, in our case. And yes - it’s exactly the same as you can do if you use x86 servers and dev machines. It’s just the fact that we can also do this for ARM on hardware that doesn’t suck that makes using ARM in production more practical for us.
- bravura 3y ago
  Sorry I missed the details: "Does that mean you're all running asahi linux or are you somehow running linux elf binaries on macOS?" So you're running whatever linux districtuion you want or some particular flavor through Docker on Mac? And you don't have ELF binaries because you're using precompiled packages for ARM and don't need weirdo prebuilt ELFs, or you have a workaround?
  - minimaul 3y ago
    We deploy containers to production, and use variants of the same containers for local development - mostly Debian. Those containers contain a mix of custom built software and packages from the distro.
  - Fnoord 3y ago
    Docker for Mac runs a full-blown Linux kernel last time I checked (Docker for Windows can use Windows containers). So whatever OS they run on the cloud (with OCI) these containers are going to work on the (very fast) M1/M2. The OS the Docker images are using is irrelevant. The OS running in the cloud is irrelevant. Only relevant factor is Docker for Mac as it means Linux kernel overhead. But this is offset by M1/M2. Clever setup!
    - minimaul 3y ago
      Exactly this. Plus as the Apple virtualisation framework now implements pretty standard virtual hardware - it uses virtio - we are finding things work vastly better in Docker for Mac - particularly as we can use virtiofs etc to pass files through from the host.
    - happymellon 3y ago
      > Docker for Windows can use Windows containers I thought Windows containers never went anywhere. Interesting to hear that they are still a thing.
      - thedougd 3y ago
        Yes, but pretty much in the same sad state as they were a few years ago. We're running a few in production and next time we touch it we're replacing them with Windows Server Core EC2 instances built from baked images. Note on Linux containers: Running Linux containers on Windows requires the use of LinuxKit or WSL. Docker Desktop for Windows requires you switch modes between Linux container mode and Windows container mode as you can't run both simultaneously. A workaround is to install an additional Docker daemon inside the WSL environment. Most people are going to install Docker Desktop and use WSL in Linux mode. It's fine. Hopefully my facts are up-to-date.
- acdha 3y ago
  Just as an aside, the same process works painlessly with podman, too, if your employer is allergic to Docker. Maybe once or twice a year I get reminded that I’m not using x86 - and it sure is nice to work all day and finish with 60% battery.
  - robbintt 3y ago
    Is this battery savings from using podman instead of docker for mac or using docker for max with M1/M2?
    - acdha 3y ago
      Running on ARM itself is a big power savings. Docker Desktop also had issues with CPU load which they might have improved since I stopped using it a couple of years ago. There were a bunch of GitHub issues starting around 2018 which were closed, moved, reopened, and it looks like it’s still a concern whereas with Podman I’ve been able to use it without thinking about it.
aragilar 3y ago
asahi linux is only needed if you are running on the bare metal. A VM (which abstracts the hardware) means you can run existing ARM64 binaries.
dikei 3y ago
You still need VM to run Linux ELF on macOS, but you don't need to use full-blown emulation like QEMU if the Linux ELF is for AARCH64, unlike when you try to run x86 ELF. It's much faster this way.
mcqueenjordan 3y ago
I assume he just meant running binaries compiled for the same ISA / processor architecture.

ignoramous 3y ago

> None of the other cloud providers are using ARM at this scale yet. They’re using Ampere chips, whereas Amazon invested in building their own - it tells you the level of commitment Amazon have here. James Hamilton was adamant AWS build ARM expertise in-house [0] (one which they accelerated by acquiring Annapurna Labs), and he's been proven right [1] despite the obstacles he himself foresaw [2]. [0] On the Origins of AWS Custom Silicon, https://archive.is/4k5ul https://archive.is/4k5ul [1] Low cost, low power servers for Internet-scale services, https://mvdirona.com/jrh/talksandpapers/JamesHamilton_CEMS.pdf https://mvdirona.com/jrh/talksandpapers/JamesHamilton_CEMS.p... [2] AWS Designed Processor: Graviton, https://archive.is/WLFBW https://archive.is/WLFBW

pdpi 3y ago
> and he's been proven right despite the obstacles he himself foresaw I wouldn't trust anybody to be right about the benefits of something this big if they don't also foresee the obstacles you'll face to realise those benefits.

picadores 3y ago

Smaller dent then selling trampolin patches that take a already sold good and multiply the performance with a factor of 0.75.

adfskghnmionio 3y ago

>My employer is moving workloads to ARM on AWS as it’s much better for price/perf It's a fool's errand to try to reason about Amazon's pricing. We don't have figures about how much a Graviton costs to build or to run, but we do know AWS has staggeringly high margins across the board. They have huge headroom to make price cuts if they want their homegrown solution to win. And perhaps it is better! I have no doubt it's a good CPU. But we can't infer that from pricing.

TechBro8615 3y ago
It could also be simultaneously true that it's cheaper to rent ARM servers from AWS than it is to rent Intel servers from them, and that AWS makes more money renting you the ARM servers. In fact, given they're developed in house, it might even be likely that the ARM margins are higher for them than their Intel margins.
- adfskghnmionio 3y ago
  [dead]
minimaul 3y ago
Quite right - you can't infer performance from pricing. We did some assessments of how well our applications ran on ARM and x86 based AWS instances, and quite simply it costs us less to serve the same quantities of end user traffic using Amazon's ARM instances compared to the x86 ones.

tracker1 3y ago

I think ARM and AMD both are starting to cut deep into Intel's market share. I do think Ampere is a bit higher priced than I'd be comfortable with if I were setting up servers. The AMD 128-core Zen 4c server chip is very impressive in terms of per-core power use and on par on power usage with ARM even. Incredible amount of computing capacity per u in the racks at this point on both fronts. Intel is betting on custom accelerators, but I don't know how well that fits on a rental (cloud) model unless you get a full server/cpu.