4 ms·

This implies that around 1.3% of the UK working population are out of action due to covid, and a lot more than that must be struggling but still able to work.

by zik 3y ago

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
The collective reality denial around Covid is by far the most bizarre and dystopian thing I've ever seen. Not just because it's objectively ridiculous to minimise an illness which has a 10% chance of doing lasting damage with unknown long-term consequences. But because so much of it is coming from doctors and health workers. And it's active, aggressive, hostile, reality denial, which attacks simple and effective common sense measures like public/medical masking, air filtration, and so on.
- jl6 3y ago
  Reality is that only severe measures like lockdowns are effective at containing the spread of respiratory illnesses (and even then it’s debatable how effective), and most people have accepted the risks so they don’t have to go through that again.
  - bugglebeetle 3y ago
    Nah, widespread air filtration would cut down a number of infections, as would masking in healthcare settings. But to the parent’s point, these are not implemented because of lack of efficacy, but because they’re contrary to the (false) narrative of “Mission Accomplished.” If we reacted to water-borne illnesses in the way we’ve done to COVID, we’d have cholera everywhere and kids still being crippled by polio.
    - lll-o-lll 3y ago
      Yes. I do not understand why we were apparently willing to create huge, lasting, economic and societal damage via lockdowns, but my kids school won’t pony up the few thousand for air filtration.
      - jl6 3y ago
        Cost vs benefit.
        mrob 3y ago
        But air filtration is cheaper than lockdowns, and probably more effective because it can be kept in place permanently.
        lll-o-lll 3y ago
        It also works on all respiratory virus’s, bushfire smoke, various other pollutants…
        jacquesm 3y ago
        It isn't a silver bullet.
        ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        Neither is soap, do you wash your hands?
        jacquesm 3y ago
        I was referring to the 'Swiss cheese' model, and GP argues that ventilation is a substitute for lockdowns, it isn't. But both are better than either and either is better than none.
        lm28469 3y ago
        Planes have pretty good air filtration systems yet people got sick in them, it's not like the air you breath out goes straight through a filter stack.
      - CalRobert 3y ago
        Laziness and general stupidity rules the day.
    - jl6 3y ago
      Cholera and Polio were much more severe illnesses than Covid and water is much easier to treat than air. I’m not sure where you’re getting the mission accomplished attitude but from what I can tell it’s simply an acknowledgement that the risks have reduced to an acceptable level, and the costs of doing anything much different are too high.
      - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
        I'm continually surprised by the parallels between Polio and COVID and yet the common understanding puts them in two very separate categories. > Polio is a viral infection that used to be common in the UK but is now rare. > Most people who had polio would have fought off the infection without even realising they were infected. > Some people with polio would have had paralysis, muscle weakness and shrinking of the muscles. But usually these problems would have either gone away over the following weeks or months, or remained the same for years afterwards. > Post-polio syndrome is where some of these symptoms develop or get worse many years or decades after the original polio infection. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-polio-syndrome/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-polio-syndrome/
        meijer 3y ago
        Polio is much more dangerous for small children, though. This could make quite a difference.
      - bugglebeetle 3y ago
        > Cholera and Polio were much more severe illnesses than Covid > During 1951-1954, an average of 16,316 paralytic polio cases and 1879 deaths from polio were reported each year https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056803.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056803.htm > An estimated 1.3 to 4 million people around the world get cholera each year and 21,000 to 143,000 people die. https://www.cdc.gov/cholera/general/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/cholera/general/index.html > COVID-19 was associated with approximately 244,000 deaths in the United States during January–December 2022. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7218a4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7218a4.htm So no, not really.
    - lm28469 3y ago
      > but because they’re contrary to the (false) narrative of “Mission Accomplished.” I don't think you understand the cost of installing and maintaining that level of air filtration in every single public and office buildings on a world scale
      - bugglebeetle 3y ago
        I don’t think you understand the costs associated with contracting the labor force because of ongoing illness, disability, and deaths.
        lm28469 3y ago
        Short of mandatory hazmat suits you'd still get that, plus the cost of filtration, good luck retrofitting anything built more than 20 years ago too. Plus you'd have to do it for personal homes and flats too
  - aaa_aaa 3y ago
    Lock downs were the worst thing states ever done to humanity at a global scale.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Your knowledge of hostory clearly is limited.
      - infecto 3y ago
        If you disagree with the statement you should simply state the reasons why. There is no need to make inflammatory statements.
        wholinator2 3y ago
        World Wars? My knowledge of history is admittedly lacking but the only thing my common perception can come up with is wars, has humanity ever been able to come together on a global scale like that for anything other than war and the aftermath alliance forming?
        infecto 3y ago
        I don’t disagree with you but the comment I responded to which has now been edited was pretty rude with some additional remarks. I don’t have any skin in the original opinion, I just thought the additional remarks he left were pretty mean.
        thumbuddy 3y ago
        Why do they need to explain it if all this person did was spout propaganda without explaining anything? Weird double standard to me personally...
        infecto 3y ago
        No double standard. Parent to mine edited his comment but he left extra colored remarks at the end. I don’t agree or disagree with the original comment. Just thought it was poor taste for the now removed remarks he left.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    No, Ventillation, Upper Room UV and ventillation are all effective But notnwe have hand sanitiser which is not even relevant.
  - krona 3y ago
    The R0 of Omicron (BA.5) is estimated to be around 18.6. Unless you live alone in the woods, you're going to pass it on to many people if you catch it, probably before you realise you even had it.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- johnchristopher 3y ago
  I recently asked at work why the co2 detectors disappeared from meeting rooms and office spaces and I was told "it's no longer legal". I was not told "it's no longer mandatory". I was told "it's no longer legal". By the same PM who thought vaccine or infection prevented any further infection. edit: western continental Europe, not Missouri. What bothers me is that the co2 presence hardly impedes work. I think it's still useful to have one to say "hey, too much co2 is eating our attention span, let's open the windows a bit". But clearly they removed it as a performative act ("there is no covid anymore"). And I am also pretty sure they also removed it because the denial/minimalist crowd sees it as an "in-your-face" symbol that covid is real/still a problem and that crowd was the most vocal at my workplace and the people who took covid seriously were seen as trouble makers when asking for masking in office. Or something.
- OliveMate 3y ago
  There's this unfortunate mean streak that plagues this country when it comes to people's ability to work and how much they earn, even if it's due to health. YouGov recently did a survey asking about what people should be able to have based on their income, and yeah. God forbid you have something nice while on minimum wage or benefits (which we ought to use a better term for). https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2023/08/02/what-should-living-standards-look-people-benefits- https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2023/08... It's sad how during the pandemic the public zeitgeist was all about public health, taking care of your mental health, and having more empathy for one another (once toilet roll was back on the shelves), and since we've returned to normality it's back to outright hostility for those who're struggling.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    > since we've returned to normality it's back to outright hostility for those who're struggling. Yeah, it worked that way when we were all in it together. Life presents struggles for everybody, but it became apparent post-COVID that this concept is lost on the more-vocal elements of the disabled demographic. The struggle is only real for them. You literally get free money from the government and special benefits as members of a protected class. Your wages can't be garnished. You can stall the eviction process. You get reserved, preferential parking. You can force businesses to make accommodations for just about anything. You optionally work 15 hours a week and have nothing but free time after that, but you don't have time to hear about anybody else's problems-- but we're expected to hear about how much worse your problems are, for hours, every time we cross paths. I'm living paycheck to paycheck and facing a layoff; I don't know what my family is going to do if that happens, because AI will be doing my job before I can recover, and I can't take out any more student loans to retrain. Tell me more about your chronic Lyme though. The fucking best part--here's the real kicker--is when you stick your neck out by offering to help someone like this. "You're facing homelessness? Shit, that won't do...come live with me! Say, you're eating a lot of our food, incurring bandwidth overages and running the AC during peak hours-- do you think you could help pitch in for some of the bills?" That always goes over well. You're not allowed to ask anything of the disabled; god forbid anybody think they're able (pun intended) to do or help with anything. It's like Seven Samurai come to life-- yeah, the marauders are bad guys, but there's an even worse villain in that story. And then: > God forbid you have something nice while on minimum wage or benefits You're already getting something nice. It's called "a low-risk lifestyle and income you didn't have to work for." FFS. Assemble the Hague over the fact that people might get upset that you're driving a Lexus to your EEOC hearing for a part-time position at Ralph's while your neighbor was trying to resuscitate their 2002 Kia so they could race to get to work at the call center on time, get verbally abused by customers at some shit customer service job for 8+ hours and hopefully retain the privilege of doing it all over again tomorrow before she, too, is replaced by AI. Tell her how hard you have it with your fibromyalgia. It's been said that high school bullies inevitably end up on the disability payroll after failing at everything else. In my experience, this checks out. The only people I know collecting it can only ever be described as abusive (in or out of high school), and the people I know with obvious disabilities (everything from amputation to PCOS to Downs) would be offended to be labeled as such. Makes one wonder what the goal of someone going out of their way to identify as vulnerable might be, since that tactic does not lend itself to survival in nature unless you're a predator feigning distress.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
badcppdev 3y ago
What is your estimate for what percentage of any population is going to be able to function well in society? There are a huge number of people who due to short and long term conditions and disabilities need society to support them to some degree or another. This is the human condition and I think society as a whole hasn't ever grasped that.
penteract 3y ago
I think it's important to be careful with that claim. Firstly, plenty of this is related to increases in NHS waiting times and decreases in quality of care (which could fairly be said to be "due to covid") which mean people are off work for longer than they would otherwise be for conditions that are not directly related to having had a covid infection. Secondly, there are a many other factors that could affect this - the "cost of living crisis" could mean that people feel more pressure to work despite ill health (although this would pull the numbers in the other direction). Also, if I use the working age population(ages 16-64) of 42.1 million in 2021 as a denominator, and remove an increase of 40,000 that the article says should be expected from changing demographics, I get 0.422/42.1 = 1.0%

This implies that around 1.3% of the UK working population are out of action due to covid, and a lot more than that must be struggling but still able to work.

by zik 3y ago

This implies that around 1.3% of the UK working population are out of action due to covid, and a lot more than that must be struggling but still able to work.

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago

The collective reality denial around Covid is by far the most bizarre and dystopian thing I've ever seen. Not just because it's objectively ridiculous to minimise an illness which has a 10% chance of doing lasting damage with unknown long-term consequences. But because so much of it is coming from doctors and health workers. And it's active, aggressive, hostile, reality denial, which attacks simple and effective common sense measures like public/medical masking, air filtration, and so on.

jl6 3y ago
Reality is that only severe measures like lockdowns are effective at containing the spread of respiratory illnesses (and even then it’s debatable how effective), and most people have accepted the risks so they don’t have to go through that again.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  Nah, widespread air filtration would cut down a number of infections, as would masking in healthcare settings. But to the parent’s point, these are not implemented because of lack of efficacy, but because they’re contrary to the (false) narrative of “Mission Accomplished.” If we reacted to water-borne illnesses in the way we’ve done to COVID, we’d have cholera everywhere and kids still being crippled by polio.
  - lll-o-lll 3y ago
    Yes. I do not understand why we were apparently willing to create huge, lasting, economic and societal damage via lockdowns, but my kids school won’t pony up the few thousand for air filtration.
    - jl6 3y ago
      Cost vs benefit.
      - mrob 3y ago
        But air filtration is cheaper than lockdowns, and probably more effective because it can be kept in place permanently.
        lll-o-lll 3y ago
        It also works on all respiratory virus’s, bushfire smoke, various other pollutants…
        jacquesm 3y ago
        It isn't a silver bullet.
        ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        Neither is soap, do you wash your hands?
        jacquesm 3y ago
        I was referring to the 'Swiss cheese' model, and GP argues that ventilation is a substitute for lockdowns, it isn't. But both are better than either and either is better than none.
        lm28469 3y ago
        Planes have pretty good air filtration systems yet people got sick in them, it's not like the air you breath out goes straight through a filter stack.
    - CalRobert 3y ago
      Laziness and general stupidity rules the day.
  - jl6 3y ago
    Cholera and Polio were much more severe illnesses than Covid and water is much easier to treat than air. I’m not sure where you’re getting the mission accomplished attitude but from what I can tell it’s simply an acknowledgement that the risks have reduced to an acceptable level, and the costs of doing anything much different are too high.
    - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
      I'm continually surprised by the parallels between Polio and COVID and yet the common understanding puts them in two very separate categories. > Polio is a viral infection that used to be common in the UK but is now rare. > Most people who had polio would have fought off the infection without even realising they were infected. > Some people with polio would have had paralysis, muscle weakness and shrinking of the muscles. But usually these problems would have either gone away over the following weeks or months, or remained the same for years afterwards. > Post-polio syndrome is where some of these symptoms develop or get worse many years or decades after the original polio infection. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-polio-syndrome/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-polio-syndrome/
      - meijer 3y ago
        Polio is much more dangerous for small children, though. This could make quite a difference.
    - bugglebeetle 3y ago
      > Cholera and Polio were much more severe illnesses than Covid > During 1951-1954, an average of 16,316 paralytic polio cases and 1879 deaths from polio were reported each year https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056803.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056803.htm > An estimated 1.3 to 4 million people around the world get cholera each year and 21,000 to 143,000 people die. https://www.cdc.gov/cholera/general/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/cholera/general/index.html > COVID-19 was associated with approximately 244,000 deaths in the United States during January–December 2022. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7218a4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7218a4.htm So no, not really.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    > but because they’re contrary to the (false) narrative of “Mission Accomplished.” I don't think you understand the cost of installing and maintaining that level of air filtration in every single public and office buildings on a world scale
    - bugglebeetle 3y ago
      I don’t think you understand the costs associated with contracting the labor force because of ongoing illness, disability, and deaths.
      - lm28469 3y ago
        Short of mandatory hazmat suits you'd still get that, plus the cost of filtration, good luck retrofitting anything built more than 20 years ago too. Plus you'd have to do it for personal homes and flats too
- aaa_aaa 3y ago
  Lock downs were the worst thing states ever done to humanity at a global scale.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Your knowledge of hostory clearly is limited.
    - infecto 3y ago
      If you disagree with the statement you should simply state the reasons why. There is no need to make inflammatory statements.
      - wholinator2 3y ago
        World Wars? My knowledge of history is admittedly lacking but the only thing my common perception can come up with is wars, has humanity ever been able to come together on a global scale like that for anything other than war and the aftermath alliance forming?
        infecto 3y ago
        I don’t disagree with you but the comment I responded to which has now been edited was pretty rude with some additional remarks. I don’t have any skin in the original opinion, I just thought the additional remarks he left were pretty mean.
      - thumbuddy 3y ago
        Why do they need to explain it if all this person did was spout propaganda without explaining anything? Weird double standard to me personally...
        infecto 3y ago
        No double standard. Parent to mine edited his comment but he left extra colored remarks at the end. I don’t agree or disagree with the original comment. Just thought it was poor taste for the now removed remarks he left.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  No, Ventillation, Upper Room UV and ventillation are all effective But notnwe have hand sanitiser which is not even relevant.
- krona 3y ago
  The R0 of Omicron (BA.5) is estimated to be around 18.6. Unless you live alone in the woods, you're going to pass it on to many people if you catch it, probably before you realise you even had it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
johnchristopher 3y ago
I recently asked at work why the co2 detectors disappeared from meeting rooms and office spaces and I was told "it's no longer legal". I was not told "it's no longer mandatory". I was told "it's no longer legal". By the same PM who thought vaccine or infection prevented any further infection. edit: western continental Europe, not Missouri. What bothers me is that the co2 presence hardly impedes work. I think it's still useful to have one to say "hey, too much co2 is eating our attention span, let's open the windows a bit". But clearly they removed it as a performative act ("there is no covid anymore"). And I am also pretty sure they also removed it because the denial/minimalist crowd sees it as an "in-your-face" symbol that covid is real/still a problem and that crowd was the most vocal at my workplace and the people who took covid seriously were seen as trouble makers when asking for masking in office. Or something.
OliveMate 3y ago
There's this unfortunate mean streak that plagues this country when it comes to people's ability to work and how much they earn, even if it's due to health. YouGov recently did a survey asking about what people should be able to have based on their income, and yeah. God forbid you have something nice while on minimum wage or benefits (which we ought to use a better term for). https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2023/08/02/what-should-living-standards-look-people-benefits- https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2023/08... It's sad how during the pandemic the public zeitgeist was all about public health, taking care of your mental health, and having more empathy for one another (once toilet roll was back on the shelves), and since we've returned to normality it's back to outright hostility for those who're struggling.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  > since we've returned to normality it's back to outright hostility for those who're struggling. Yeah, it worked that way when we were all in it together. Life presents struggles for everybody, but it became apparent post-COVID that this concept is lost on the more-vocal elements of the disabled demographic. The struggle is only real for them. You literally get free money from the government and special benefits as members of a protected class. Your wages can't be garnished. You can stall the eviction process. You get reserved, preferential parking. You can force businesses to make accommodations for just about anything. You optionally work 15 hours a week and have nothing but free time after that, but you don't have time to hear about anybody else's problems-- but we're expected to hear about how much worse your problems are, for hours, every time we cross paths. I'm living paycheck to paycheck and facing a layoff; I don't know what my family is going to do if that happens, because AI will be doing my job before I can recover, and I can't take out any more student loans to retrain. Tell me more about your chronic Lyme though. The fucking best part--here's the real kicker--is when you stick your neck out by offering to help someone like this. "You're facing homelessness? Shit, that won't do...come live with me! Say, you're eating a lot of our food, incurring bandwidth overages and running the AC during peak hours-- do you think you could help pitch in for some of the bills?" That always goes over well. You're not allowed to ask anything of the disabled; god forbid anybody think they're able (pun intended) to do or help with anything. It's like Seven Samurai come to life-- yeah, the marauders are bad guys, but there's an even worse villain in that story. And then: > God forbid you have something nice while on minimum wage or benefits You're already getting something nice. It's called "a low-risk lifestyle and income you didn't have to work for." FFS. Assemble the Hague over the fact that people might get upset that you're driving a Lexus to your EEOC hearing for a part-time position at Ralph's while your neighbor was trying to resuscitate their 2002 Kia so they could race to get to work at the call center on time, get verbally abused by customers at some shit customer service job for 8+ hours and hopefully retain the privilege of doing it all over again tomorrow before she, too, is replaced by AI. Tell her how hard you have it with your fibromyalgia. It's been said that high school bullies inevitably end up on the disability payroll after failing at everything else. In my experience, this checks out. The only people I know collecting it can only ever be described as abusive (in or out of high school), and the people I know with obvious disabilities (everything from amputation to PCOS to Downs) would be offended to be labeled as such. Makes one wonder what the goal of someone going out of their way to identify as vulnerable might be, since that tactic does not lend itself to survival in nature unless you're a predator feigning distress.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

badcppdev 3y ago

What is your estimate for what percentage of any population is going to be able to function well in society? There are a huge number of people who due to short and long term conditions and disabilities need society to support them to some degree or another. This is the human condition and I think society as a whole hasn't ever grasped that.

penteract 3y ago

I think it's important to be careful with that claim. Firstly, plenty of this is related to increases in NHS waiting times and decreases in quality of care (which could fairly be said to be "due to covid") which mean people are off work for longer than they would otherwise be for conditions that are not directly related to having had a covid infection. Secondly, there are a many other factors that could affect this - the "cost of living crisis" could mean that people feel more pressure to work despite ill health (although this would pull the numbers in the other direction). Also, if I use the working age population(ages 16-64) of 42.1 million in 2021 as a denominator, and remove an increase of 40,000 that the article says should be expected from changing demographics, I get 0.422/42.1 = 1.0%