4 ms·

My question: As an American, why should I work in IC fabrication? I'm competing with low-cost Asians who set a cap on my salary. Work conditions, income, and ev

My question: As an American, why should I work in IC fabrication? I'm competing with low-cost Asians who set a cap on my salary. Work conditions, income, and everything else is worse than SWE. I switched away from electronics early in my career, and it seems like a strict win. As much as I believe in on-shoring, I'm not sure those issues can, will, or should be fixed.

PKop 3y ago
They may be forced upon us, regardless of the negatives you highlight, if globalization and free-trade brakes down and/or the international trade-value of the $ goes down making the cost-benefit for domestic sourcing more favorable.
aj7 3y ago
Ans. To make a living.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mcntsh 3y ago
Honest question but won't these "low-cost Asians" not be as much of a factor on wages if the fabrications are in the US?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Depends if there are tariffs that incentivize purchase of more expensive American chips.
kakwa_ 3y ago
For the "can" part, looking at the numbers, it looks possible. If I take TSMC, they have: * $73b revenue * $32b income * 73000 employees (2022 numbers from wikipedia) That's a really high margin, and a really high revenue per employee. This means there is probably room to accommodate for higher wages. The concern I have revolves more around the US work culture. Employees tend to switch company frequently. Given how critical institutional knowledge is for running these fabs, this is a handicap. I also cannot shake the feeling that the lack of regulations regarding working conditions might also be detrimental. Better regulations and compensation rules regarding night shifts or on-call for example could improve things greatly and attract far more workers in this field.
- Affric 3y ago
  > The concern I have revolves more around the US work culture. Employees tend to switch company frequently. It’s not just cultural and it’s hinted at in the second part of your comment. Lack of regulation in employment means you’re penalised financially for staying in one job. Most employees have little say in their pay and conditions. Employees wages are rarely commensurate with the value they provide to a firm.
- frognumber 3y ago
  > Employees tend to switch company frequently. Given how critical institutional knowledge is for running these fabs, this is a handicap. When I've seen people switch firms, the institutional knowledge they brought over was gold.
danpalmer 3y ago
I don’t think the target job market here is six figure salaries for SWEs, I think it’s mid-high 5 figure salaries for skilled manufacturing employees. More than Asia, but same order of magnitude, maybe even the same ballpark for some areas. I expect most chip design will still be done in Asia and those are the high paying jobs.
slingnow 3y ago
You're right. Why should any American ever work in any job that doesn't favorably compare to SWE salary and working conditions? Everyone should quit their jobs and become a SWE. It's just that simple, right? /s
- mrkstu 3y ago
  The issue is that there is a high level of overlap between the skill sets/aptitudes necessary to work in the chip industry and on the software side, and in some subsets, its substantially easier on the SWE side. Why work harder for less if the general aptitude for jobs is about equal?
- madengr 3y ago
  My wife was a process engineer in microelectronics. She is now doing data engineering and ML, and doubled her salary. She will never return to that industry.
- frognumber 3y ago
  Because a janitor does not know how to SWE? And a CEO makes more? And a teacher has meaningful work? On the other hand, EEs either can SWE or can learn quickly, and switching seems like a win in all respects, unless you have a bunny suit kink or something.

PKop 3y ago

They may be forced upon us, regardless of the negatives you highlight, if globalization and free-trade brakes down and/or the international trade-value of the $ goes down making the cost-benefit for domestic sourcing more favorable.

aj7 3y ago

Ans. To make a living.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mcntsh 3y ago

Honest question but won't these "low-cost Asians" not be as much of a factor on wages if the fabrications are in the US?

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Depends if there are tariffs that incentivize purchase of more expensive American chips.

kakwa_ 3y ago

For the "can" part, looking at the numbers, it looks possible. If I take TSMC, they have: * $73b revenue * $32b income * 73000 employees (2022 numbers from wikipedia) That's a really high margin, and a really high revenue per employee. This means there is probably room to accommodate for higher wages. The concern I have revolves more around the US work culture. Employees tend to switch company frequently. Given how critical institutional knowledge is for running these fabs, this is a handicap. I also cannot shake the feeling that the lack of regulations regarding working conditions might also be detrimental. Better regulations and compensation rules regarding night shifts or on-call for example could improve things greatly and attract far more workers in this field.

Affric 3y ago
> The concern I have revolves more around the US work culture. Employees tend to switch company frequently. It’s not just cultural and it’s hinted at in the second part of your comment. Lack of regulation in employment means you’re penalised financially for staying in one job. Most employees have little say in their pay and conditions. Employees wages are rarely commensurate with the value they provide to a firm.
frognumber 3y ago
> Employees tend to switch company frequently. Given how critical institutional knowledge is for running these fabs, this is a handicap. When I've seen people switch firms, the institutional knowledge they brought over was gold.

danpalmer 3y ago

I don’t think the target job market here is six figure salaries for SWEs, I think it’s mid-high 5 figure salaries for skilled manufacturing employees. More than Asia, but same order of magnitude, maybe even the same ballpark for some areas. I expect most chip design will still be done in Asia and those are the high paying jobs.

slingnow 3y ago

You're right. Why should any American ever work in any job that doesn't favorably compare to SWE salary and working conditions? Everyone should quit their jobs and become a SWE. It's just that simple, right? /s

mrkstu 3y ago
The issue is that there is a high level of overlap between the skill sets/aptitudes necessary to work in the chip industry and on the software side, and in some subsets, its substantially easier on the SWE side. Why work harder for less if the general aptitude for jobs is about equal?
madengr 3y ago
My wife was a process engineer in microelectronics. She is now doing data engineering and ML, and doubled her salary. She will never return to that industry.
frognumber 3y ago
Because a janitor does not know how to SWE? And a CEO makes more? And a teacher has meaningful work? On the other hand, EEs either can SWE or can learn quickly, and switching seems like a win in all respects, unless you have a bunny suit kink or something.