3 ms·

Most of that high cost isn't due to the use of specific tunnel boring machines. In Europe they pay 1/6th of the US cost and still dig much wider tunnels with mu

Most of that high cost isn't due to the use of specific tunnel boring machines. In Europe they pay 1/6th of the US cost and still dig much wider tunnels with multiple tracks that support higher-capacity trains and safety features that the Vegas tunnels lack.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
I agree that there are a lot of reasons for the cost differential between the US and Europe, and many reports and papers on the topic. From what I've read, tunnel costs are climbing quickly in Europe. At the end of the day The boring company seems to be able to avoid these high costs using a combination of their technology, simplified goal, and business approach while nobody else has been able to bring costs down for a large tunnels in the US. It would be great if someone could figure out how to bring large Tunnel cost down in the US, but until someone does, smaller tunnels costing a few percent of the cost have a competitive advantage. My understanding is that the problems driving large tunnel construction costs in the US are driven by a shortage of labor expertise, Labor bloat compared to other countries, and institutional inability to manage large projects and avoid scope change.
- deleted 3y ago
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- abduhl 3y ago
  >> My understanding is that the problems driving large tunnel construction costs in the US are driven by a shortage of labor expertise, Labor bloat compared to other countries, and institutional inability to manage large projects and avoid scope change. This understanding is not correct. America's tunneling cost problem is driven by labor costs, unions, politics, and third party litigation. The institutional inability to manage large projects is a result of the latter three of these: the people in charge when the contract is signed are often not the people in charge when the job is half completed, and that change in leadership leads to scope changes that should (justifiably) be paid for.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I dont see a meaningful distinction between the causes you claim and what I said. I agree third party litigation warrants highlighting, but I consider that as part of institutional inability to manage large projects. Likelwise, I see high labor costs and unions as equavalent to lack of skilled labor and bloated labor costs. At the end of the day, we are saying the same thing. Cost of workers is higher, the US uses far more workers, and the US legal and political systems are not condusive to efficient execution.
    - abduhl 3y ago
      Your articulation is not unique to large diameter tunnels, the generic costs you point to are endemic to any diameter tunnel in America and also to any infrastructure project in America that takes place in an urban environment. To say that these things are a "large diameter tunnel" problem is to miss the unique distinctions between TUNNELING costs and INFRASTRUCTURE costs in America. At a high level we agree, but that's not useful for finding a solution to the specific problem of American tunneling costs. For example, the labor shortage impacts all construction in America but tunnels require even more specialized laborers. Unions drive up the cost of all construction in America, but specific unions (like the Sandhogs) have specific provisions in their contracts that drive up the cost even more. Scope changes impact all construction, but scope changes underground cost orders of magnitude more than surface scope changes (add an offramp above ground versus add an offramp underground). Third party litigation impacts all construction, but the nature of tunneling increases the risk of third party litigation because settlement/sinkholes can occur vast distances away from the work.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        Again, I think I agree with you on the nature of the problems. Where I disagree is that the boring company is approach minimizes the magnitude and impact of these challenges. For example, if the project scope isn't dictated by politicians, it is less susceptible to political whims and scope changes. If the project scope is smaller, the we all challenges will be fewer. If the tunnels are smaller, service requirements are lower. It would be interesting to know the boring company uses union labor or not.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

I agree that there are a lot of reasons for the cost differential between the US and Europe, and many reports and papers on the topic. From what I've read, tunnel costs are climbing quickly in Europe. At the end of the day The boring company seems to be able to avoid these high costs using a combination of their technology, simplified goal, and business approach while nobody else has been able to bring costs down for a large tunnels in the US. It would be great if someone could figure out how to bring large Tunnel cost down in the US, but until someone does, smaller tunnels costing a few percent of the cost have a competitive advantage. My understanding is that the problems driving large tunnel construction costs in the US are driven by a shortage of labor expertise, Labor bloat compared to other countries, and institutional inability to manage large projects and avoid scope change.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
abduhl 3y ago
>> My understanding is that the problems driving large tunnel construction costs in the US are driven by a shortage of labor expertise, Labor bloat compared to other countries, and institutional inability to manage large projects and avoid scope change. This understanding is not correct. America's tunneling cost problem is driven by labor costs, unions, politics, and third party litigation. The institutional inability to manage large projects is a result of the latter three of these: the people in charge when the contract is signed are often not the people in charge when the job is half completed, and that change in leadership leads to scope changes that should (justifiably) be paid for.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I dont see a meaningful distinction between the causes you claim and what I said. I agree third party litigation warrants highlighting, but I consider that as part of institutional inability to manage large projects. Likelwise, I see high labor costs and unions as equavalent to lack of skilled labor and bloated labor costs. At the end of the day, we are saying the same thing. Cost of workers is higher, the US uses far more workers, and the US legal and political systems are not condusive to efficient execution.
  - abduhl 3y ago
    Your articulation is not unique to large diameter tunnels, the generic costs you point to are endemic to any diameter tunnel in America and also to any infrastructure project in America that takes place in an urban environment. To say that these things are a "large diameter tunnel" problem is to miss the unique distinctions between TUNNELING costs and INFRASTRUCTURE costs in America. At a high level we agree, but that's not useful for finding a solution to the specific problem of American tunneling costs. For example, the labor shortage impacts all construction in America but tunnels require even more specialized laborers. Unions drive up the cost of all construction in America, but specific unions (like the Sandhogs) have specific provisions in their contracts that drive up the cost even more. Scope changes impact all construction, but scope changes underground cost orders of magnitude more than surface scope changes (add an offramp above ground versus add an offramp underground). Third party litigation impacts all construction, but the nature of tunneling increases the risk of third party litigation because settlement/sinkholes can occur vast distances away from the work.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      Again, I think I agree with you on the nature of the problems. Where I disagree is that the boring company is approach minimizes the magnitude and impact of these challenges. For example, if the project scope isn't dictated by politicians, it is less susceptible to political whims and scope changes. If the project scope is smaller, the we all challenges will be fewer. If the tunnels are smaller, service requirements are lower. It would be interesting to know the boring company uses union labor or not.