4 ms·

A couple of points of clarification are needed: It's not "my take", it's ACOUP's (though, to be fair, I'm convinced by it): https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-a

by the_af 3y ago

A couple of points of clarification are needed: It's not "my take", it's ACOUP's (though, to be fair, I'm convinced by it): https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-acquisitions-how-it-wasnt-game-of-thrones-and-the-middle-ages-part-ii/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-acquisitions-how-it-wasnt-... Second, GoT seems to fit within the Late Middle Ages / Early Modern period. In fact, ACOUP points up that the armor worn on the TV show at times looks to be Early Modern / Renaissance! If this was Early Middle Ages, there would have to be a lot more chainmail and far less plate mail. The Early Modern period (not the Middle Ages) would make more sense for acts of sacrilege shown in GoT because it also saw the rise of professional armies who didn't act because of deference to neither church nor king, but because of pay. But besides Bronn and the mercenary companies outside Westeros, most of the armies within Westeros proper seem to be motivated by allegiances to noble houses, and so they must defer to tradition and religion. Third, ACOUP is talking of religion in general. There are some characters in GoT that believe in their religion (possibly some of the Starks and their "Old Gods", Melissandre and her Lord of Light) but most of the world of Westeros is skeptical of any religions at all, not just the mainstream one. But as ACOUP points out: > "This is the mistake my students make – they don’t believe medieval Catholicism or Roman paganism, and so they weakly assume that no one (or at least, none of the ‘really smart’ people) at the time really did either. Of course this is wrong: People in the past believed their own religion." The vikings before converting to Christianity had their own gods, and they truly believed in them. In contrast, most of the nobles of Westeros don't believe in any gods, pagan or otherwise. Which a serious historical mistake if one is trying to reflect -- albeit with fantasy divergences -- "real medieval society". I bet you Charlemagne truly believed there was a god judging him.

cyberax 3y ago
On the other hand, not having strong religious feelings was also pretty common in the Asian history. Especially in China.
- the_af 3y ago
  I thought GRRM was trying to set up a fictional European Middle Ages, at least in Westeros? In any case, his depiction of "Asian" nomadic cultures is hilariously unrealistic as well. I recommend ACOUP's chapters on the Dothraki; their culture doesn't fit anything from the real-world, be it Huns, Mongols or Native Americans, all quoted by GRRM as references (so it's valid to mention if he misused them). Someone mentioned GRRM seems to be using stereotype, not reality, as reference! Which is fine and dandy, except GRRM claimed he was aiming for realism...
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > I thought GRRM was trying to set up a fictional European Middle Ages, at least in Westeros? Sure. I'm just noting that having cultures that don't care too much about religion is not unprecedented in the actual history.
    - the_af 3y ago
      But what does this have to do with whether the fictional world of "A Song of Ice and Fire" is more or less realistic in their depiction of "medieval society" [1] than the epic romances that came before, and that he compares to "Disneyland Middle Ages"? [1, again]. We are discussing GRRM's fictional depiction of a "realistic" middle ages, with a focus on Europe but some side-dishes of Asian steppe cultures -- which according to ACOUP he also gets wrong. Which wouldn't matter if GRRM didn't assert his depiction was more realistic! ---- [1] George Martin's words.
- bashmelek 3y ago
  That seems to contradict my understanding of Chinese history and culture. Historically they seem to be strongly spiritual like any people, and government support for religions. I admit most of exposure is from literature and not much more. Could you elaborate on the point?
  - xkcd-sucks 3y ago
    Maybe the absence of a strong unified church which is separate(-ish) from a strong state, as the Catholic church related to European states? Like, there were religious institutions in classical Chinese civilization; the government did participate in it ("the role of the emperor is to maintain harmony between heaven and earth, he rules with the mandate of Heaven" etc); there was lots of "worshippy activities" in temple-ish buildings; the closest things to "official religion" were a bit syncretic but Christianity was also pretty syncretic in origin just presented later as something fully formed in unity; mythology overlapped with history in that mythological power structures resembled real power structures and government etc. One big difference seems to be the absence of Christian-style religious services in which a large audience listens to a preacher / regularly participates in a long shared ritual like Mass, but this is from the anecdotal perspective of comparing (very little) experience in modern Catholic churches vs received information and visiting historical sites in China
  - cyberax 3y ago
    China did not have a unified religion, or even a unified pantheon. Each region had its own sets of gods and traditions. Even the somewhat unified Confucianism is more of a philosophical teaching, and it works just fine alongside the traditional Chinese religions. People understood this and generally were content to leave each over in peace over the religion. Compare this to Europe and Middle East where people (still!) wage actual holy wars over doctrinal matters. GRRM's world is closer to China than to Europe in this regard.
  - solardev 3y ago
    I think their spirituality is more about mysticism rather than the apparatus of organized (and politicized) churches run by humans. There's not some huge clerical institution vying for power against the state, just a general background noise about the heavens and the ancestors and the such. Even with the influence of Buddhism, that was only tolerated as a philosophical system of self improvement. When the Dalai Llama became an actual political threat, he was replaced with a puppet. Modern China is pretty much an atheist state that is pretty religion unfriendly, but I think that's a lasting consequence of the Cultural Revolution and not something from their older history.
msh 3y ago
But it comparison the blog makes between religion in GoT and the Middle Ages don't make sense. In GoT we are explicitly told that the "church" was deliberately culled and broken by the kings back when they had dragons and only survived on the kings mercy, it might make sense that this could have lessened belief in religion. We are not told what religion the dragon lords had, but apparently they took over the local beliefs after breaking the "church". I also don't see how a army with allegiances to noble houses must defer to tradition and religion, how would you then explain a king converting to christianity (or the other way)?
- the_af 3y ago
  > But it comparison the blog makes between religion in GoT and the Middle Ages don't make sense Why then would GRRM claim his Westeros was "to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like" then? A society with the church "broken" by the kings and without any religion to supplant it wouldn't be like medieval society at all! It would make more sense for GRRM to claim his take is transposing modern sensibilities to a fantasy middle ages world. That would work. His characters are cynical like a modern person would be, rather than like a medieval person. But GRRM is not claiming this as his intent, which is a pity. > I also don't see how a army with allegiances to noble houses must defer to tradition and religion, how would you then explain a king converting to christianity (or the other way)? Well, what religion did Cersei claim was the true one then? Kings and queens converted to other religions, they didn't become atheists. And frequently this was divisive anyway, sometimes leading to civil war. And let's remember that Cersei was already on shaky grounds, she was a humiliated woman whom people didn't respect and were stoning moments ago! An already unpopular woman burns down the most important religious building and ascends to queendom on which grounds exactly? Which gods should the Lannisters pray to, now that Cersei destroyed the Sept? Are they not deeply religious, like in true medieval society?
  - msh 3y ago
    I think you are looking for another kind of realism than what the books have. If it was a one to one society with our Middle Ages why would it not take place in our world. GoT have a world with magic and dragons, I think it would be completely unrealistic if that world ended up with a religious life exactly as ours in the Middle Ages.

by the_af 3y ago

cyberax 3y ago

On the other hand, not having strong religious feelings was also pretty common in the Asian history. Especially in China.

the_af 3y ago
I thought GRRM was trying to set up a fictional European Middle Ages, at least in Westeros? In any case, his depiction of "Asian" nomadic cultures is hilariously unrealistic as well. I recommend ACOUP's chapters on the Dothraki; their culture doesn't fit anything from the real-world, be it Huns, Mongols or Native Americans, all quoted by GRRM as references (so it's valid to mention if he misused them). Someone mentioned GRRM seems to be using stereotype, not reality, as reference! Which is fine and dandy, except GRRM claimed he was aiming for realism...
- cyberax 3y ago
  > I thought GRRM was trying to set up a fictional European Middle Ages, at least in Westeros? Sure. I'm just noting that having cultures that don't care too much about religion is not unprecedented in the actual history.
  - the_af 3y ago
    But what does this have to do with whether the fictional world of "A Song of Ice and Fire" is more or less realistic in their depiction of "medieval society" [1] than the epic romances that came before, and that he compares to "Disneyland Middle Ages"? [1, again]. We are discussing GRRM's fictional depiction of a "realistic" middle ages, with a focus on Europe but some side-dishes of Asian steppe cultures -- which according to ACOUP he also gets wrong. Which wouldn't matter if GRRM didn't assert his depiction was more realistic! ---- [1] George Martin's words.
bashmelek 3y ago
That seems to contradict my understanding of Chinese history and culture. Historically they seem to be strongly spiritual like any people, and government support for religions. I admit most of exposure is from literature and not much more. Could you elaborate on the point?
- xkcd-sucks 3y ago
  Maybe the absence of a strong unified church which is separate(-ish) from a strong state, as the Catholic church related to European states? Like, there were religious institutions in classical Chinese civilization; the government did participate in it ("the role of the emperor is to maintain harmony between heaven and earth, he rules with the mandate of Heaven" etc); there was lots of "worshippy activities" in temple-ish buildings; the closest things to "official religion" were a bit syncretic but Christianity was also pretty syncretic in origin just presented later as something fully formed in unity; mythology overlapped with history in that mythological power structures resembled real power structures and government etc. One big difference seems to be the absence of Christian-style religious services in which a large audience listens to a preacher / regularly participates in a long shared ritual like Mass, but this is from the anecdotal perspective of comparing (very little) experience in modern Catholic churches vs received information and visiting historical sites in China
- cyberax 3y ago
  China did not have a unified religion, or even a unified pantheon. Each region had its own sets of gods and traditions. Even the somewhat unified Confucianism is more of a philosophical teaching, and it works just fine alongside the traditional Chinese religions. People understood this and generally were content to leave each over in peace over the religion. Compare this to Europe and Middle East where people (still!) wage actual holy wars over doctrinal matters. GRRM's world is closer to China than to Europe in this regard.
- solardev 3y ago
  I think their spirituality is more about mysticism rather than the apparatus of organized (and politicized) churches run by humans. There's not some huge clerical institution vying for power against the state, just a general background noise about the heavens and the ancestors and the such. Even with the influence of Buddhism, that was only tolerated as a philosophical system of self improvement. When the Dalai Llama became an actual political threat, he was replaced with a puppet. Modern China is pretty much an atheist state that is pretty religion unfriendly, but I think that's a lasting consequence of the Cultural Revolution and not something from their older history.

msh 3y ago

But it comparison the blog makes between religion in GoT and the Middle Ages don't make sense. In GoT we are explicitly told that the "church" was deliberately culled and broken by the kings back when they had dragons and only survived on the kings mercy, it might make sense that this could have lessened belief in religion. We are not told what religion the dragon lords had, but apparently they took over the local beliefs after breaking the "church". I also don't see how a army with allegiances to noble houses must defer to tradition and religion, how would you then explain a king converting to christianity (or the other way)?

the_af 3y ago
> But it comparison the blog makes between religion in GoT and the Middle Ages don't make sense Why then would GRRM claim his Westeros was "to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like" then? A society with the church "broken" by the kings and without any religion to supplant it wouldn't be like medieval society at all! It would make more sense for GRRM to claim his take is transposing modern sensibilities to a fantasy middle ages world. That would work. His characters are cynical like a modern person would be, rather than like a medieval person. But GRRM is not claiming this as his intent, which is a pity. > I also don't see how a army with allegiances to noble houses must defer to tradition and religion, how would you then explain a king converting to christianity (or the other way)? Well, what religion did Cersei claim was the true one then? Kings and queens converted to other religions, they didn't become atheists. And frequently this was divisive anyway, sometimes leading to civil war. And let's remember that Cersei was already on shaky grounds, she was a humiliated woman whom people didn't respect and were stoning moments ago! An already unpopular woman burns down the most important religious building and ascends to queendom on which grounds exactly? Which gods should the Lannisters pray to, now that Cersei destroyed the Sept? Are they not deeply religious, like in true medieval society?
- msh 3y ago
  I think you are looking for another kind of realism than what the books have. If it was a one to one society with our Middle Ages why would it not take place in our world. GoT have a world with magic and dragons, I think it would be completely unrealistic if that world ended up with a religious life exactly as ours in the Middle Ages.