5 ms·

It’s the worst business to work for. You’ll work 60 hours a week for shitty pay, and be the Yoda of some tool. In 10 years there will be a new magic tool. Then

It’s the worst business to work for. You’ll work 60 hours a week for shitty pay, and be the Yoda of some tool. In 10 years there will be a new magic tool. Then you start learning the Starbucks menu.

vel0city 3y ago
There are loads of jobs related to the fabs surrounding them though. Lots of companies designing the things these fabs will end up actually producing, lots of testing the things these fabs produce, lots of integrating these things the fabs produce. The technology services supporting those companies making the designs. Etc.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Those jobs don't pay well either. You'll see salaries of around $70-110k in very expensive metros like the Bay, Portland, Dallas, Austin, etc. Salaries just haven't kept up in the EE space.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    I'll tell that to all my friends in the EE space who live very comfortably that they're clearly not paid well. They'll probably have a laugh while they're out boating.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Idk, KLA has multiple Test Engineer roles open right now in Milpitas that are offering $29/hour and the idiots at Motek have been spamming me with ASIC Design Engineer roles paying around $80-100k/yr within the Bay Area even though I haven't been an engineer for almost a decade. I think there might be a bimodal distribution within EE salaries where either you work at an Nvidia/Google/Apple/AMD/TI type company which pays competitively and others which pay subpar wages. Maybe this is heavily dependent on the subset of EE as well (eg. I'd assume the profit margins for a fabless GPU company like Nvidia are much higher than a company building/desigining ASICs for Telcom usecases like KLA). That said, you seem to be from North Texas/DFW and EE wages and cost of living seem much more managable compared to those offered in the Bay Area and Portland.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        Median home price in Milpitas: $1.3M Median home price in Richardson: $478K Median home price in Garland: $301k Median home price in Sherman: $308k Median home price in The Colony: $411k Median home price in Plano: $520k Which places are you more likely to be able to own your home with ~$100k/yr income?
        alephnerd 3y ago
        No shit sherlock. I'm just pointing out that EE salaries within the US are depressed due to the (relatively) low wages within DFW (which by DFW levels are competitive). At the end of the day, you guys are definetly being underpaid compared to SWEs as well as certain specialities of EE (take a look at Nvidia's mid-level TC in the Bay verus TI's in DFW). DFW has always been a major EE hub in the US, but SV and Portland are similarly sized EE industry hubs and their wages have been depressed. Since DFW represents around 30-40% of the EE industry within the US, it's a major portion but plenty of industry share is still stuck in higher CoL areas, which incentivizes talent to either switch to SWE or outsource jobs to SK, Taiwan, PRC, India, and Israel where such salaries are more competitive
- Spooky23 3y ago
  I worked on a campus as a tenant at the facility with a big semiconductor focus and some prototype fabs. The pecking order was established in the parking lot. The execs drove BMWs and Teslas, the tenants varied. We were in a special lot. The worker bees in the fabs drove older Hyundais and Nissans. Except for the trades - fabs require a lot of plumbing and electrical contractors, and those guys were all union, all minting overtime, and all driving fancy pickup trucks.
bagacrap 3y ago
Why can't you learn the next tool? Everyone in a tech field has to retain the ability to learn new things over time. AI might not take our jobs but it will likely change them. I guess it sucks if you have a fear of learning. Admittedly, at first learning a new thing can be kind of uncomfortable, like getting into a cold swimming pool. But once you get over the initial shock and start moving around, it's not so bad.
- vsareto 3y ago
  Continuous reskilling for bad pay sucks, especially when you can’t reap from your investment of being a specialist for the first tool. Or the old tool is changed for bad reasons.
- qbasic_forever 3y ago
  Because for this work it's cheaper for the company to hire a new person with a lower starting wage vs. keep employing and paying higher wages to more experienced workers. It's not the worker's fault they can't learn the new tool (they absolutely can learn it). It's capitalism's fault for valuing workers only for the cost of their labor and nothing else.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > It's capitalism's fault for valuing workers only for the cost of their labor and nothing else. Sigh. The value you're talking about here is the cost of their labour. This is like a business owner saying that employees should value their jobs differently to their salary. You're right in the sense that capitalism is fundamentally "people make agreements and decisions within what's available to them" but what's the actual issue you want capitalism to solve, that doesn't create one of the massive downsides that any of capitalism's former rivals has? E.g. monarchy can reward loyalty, but then so can capitalism. Monarchy can just also tell you to go die on a field if you don't kill the other king's people.
    - vkou 3y ago
      > Monarchy can just also tell you to go die on a field if you don't kill the other king's people. What makes you think that capitalism won't do the same to you? Capitalist[1] societies engage in pointless, bloody wars all the time. [1] And communist, and other -ist.
asow92 3y ago
If you can't learn a new tool then you're just a tool yourself.
- ethbr0 3y ago
  Engineers dancing around the fundamental constraints of reality deserve a bit more respect than folks complaining about learning the latest JS-of-the-month, all of which follow basic comp sci patterns.
  - asow92 3y ago
    You talk as if they're smart enough to learn something new. They're either smart or they're not. Which one is it?
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Here's something new, perhaps: some things are much easier to learn than others.
      - asow92 3y ago
        Obviously, but that doesn't change my mind here. If you're in the 1% of top performers, you have the cognitive ability to learn new things.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > Obviously, but that doesn't change my mind here. > If you're in the 1% of top performers, you have the cognitive ability to learn new things. I had to stop and admire the subtle self-deprecating humour on display between those two statements. Well played!
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        3y ago
stanfordkid 3y ago
Sounds like the ideal type of trade to build a union for?
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  Ah yes, Texas, well known for its labor rights. When the cops are complaining about union-busting...
- systemvoltage 3y ago
  This will be the end of semiconductor industry.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    The end of it in the US. It'll carry on fine elsewhere.
    - systemvoltage 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      That's why TSMC became competitive in the 2000s.
bob1029 3y ago
It's the best possible bootcamp for engineers if you are lucky enough to land a role in systems engineering (or its equivalent). If you actually pay attention and participate, you will learn about ways of troubleshooting that will stick with you forever. The notion of making an assumption is completely exorcised from your body - in this industry, the consequences of bad assumptions cost at least a million bucks always. You might also learn helpful terms like "value-add" that will guide your business sense for the rest of your life. I can see why a lot of people hate the idea of semiconductor manufacturing. It is the apex of "by the books" while simultaneously exhibiting the most incredible shiny technology on the face of the planet. Being forced to follow all of these rules and procedures to get at the shiny tech rubs a lot of people the wrong way. "What do you mean I can't take my smart phone into the office? Y'all make its memory here." The pay is also arguably pretty bad unless you lock in for life. I would say you get what you want out of it, just like anything. If you walk in with an entitlement mindset and expect the knowledge to be forced into your brain, you are in for a really shitty ride just as you describe. If you walk in thinking "I'll bust my ass here for 3-5 years and learn what I can", you will have a much better experience. I didn't even know I wanted to write software full time until I was sitting in a cubicle at Samsung's ATX office for a few years. In my opinion, if you aren't sure what you want to do but you really love all things tech, why the hell not? Try it out. It was a great stepping stone for me.
- sgarland 3y ago
  I also transitioned into tech from Samsung ATX. Working nights in Cleans, doing a weekend Master’s at UT for SWE, and writing shitty CRUD at work to replace even shittier Excel sheets. I didn’t particularly like the job, but I’m grateful for the opportunities that time and effort has given me.

vel0city 3y ago

There are loads of jobs related to the fabs surrounding them though. Lots of companies designing the things these fabs will end up actually producing, lots of testing the things these fabs produce, lots of integrating these things the fabs produce. The technology services supporting those companies making the designs. Etc.

alephnerd 3y ago
Those jobs don't pay well either. You'll see salaries of around $70-110k in very expensive metros like the Bay, Portland, Dallas, Austin, etc. Salaries just haven't kept up in the EE space.
- vel0city 3y ago
  I'll tell that to all my friends in the EE space who live very comfortably that they're clearly not paid well. They'll probably have a laugh while they're out boating.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Idk, KLA has multiple Test Engineer roles open right now in Milpitas that are offering $29/hour and the idiots at Motek have been spamming me with ASIC Design Engineer roles paying around $80-100k/yr within the Bay Area even though I haven't been an engineer for almost a decade. I think there might be a bimodal distribution within EE salaries where either you work at an Nvidia/Google/Apple/AMD/TI type company which pays competitively and others which pay subpar wages. Maybe this is heavily dependent on the subset of EE as well (eg. I'd assume the profit margins for a fabless GPU company like Nvidia are much higher than a company building/desigining ASICs for Telcom usecases like KLA). That said, you seem to be from North Texas/DFW and EE wages and cost of living seem much more managable compared to those offered in the Bay Area and Portland.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      Median home price in Milpitas: $1.3M Median home price in Richardson: $478K Median home price in Garland: $301k Median home price in Sherman: $308k Median home price in The Colony: $411k Median home price in Plano: $520k Which places are you more likely to be able to own your home with ~$100k/yr income?
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        No shit sherlock. I'm just pointing out that EE salaries within the US are depressed due to the (relatively) low wages within DFW (which by DFW levels are competitive). At the end of the day, you guys are definetly being underpaid compared to SWEs as well as certain specialities of EE (take a look at Nvidia's mid-level TC in the Bay verus TI's in DFW). DFW has always been a major EE hub in the US, but SV and Portland are similarly sized EE industry hubs and their wages have been depressed. Since DFW represents around 30-40% of the EE industry within the US, it's a major portion but plenty of industry share is still stuck in higher CoL areas, which incentivizes talent to either switch to SWE or outsource jobs to SK, Taiwan, PRC, India, and Israel where such salaries are more competitive
Spooky23 3y ago
I worked on a campus as a tenant at the facility with a big semiconductor focus and some prototype fabs. The pecking order was established in the parking lot. The execs drove BMWs and Teslas, the tenants varied. We were in a special lot. The worker bees in the fabs drove older Hyundais and Nissans. Except for the trades - fabs require a lot of plumbing and electrical contractors, and those guys were all union, all minting overtime, and all driving fancy pickup trucks.

bagacrap 3y ago

Why can't you learn the next tool? Everyone in a tech field has to retain the ability to learn new things over time. AI might not take our jobs but it will likely change them. I guess it sucks if you have a fear of learning. Admittedly, at first learning a new thing can be kind of uncomfortable, like getting into a cold swimming pool. But once you get over the initial shock and start moving around, it's not so bad.

vsareto 3y ago
Continuous reskilling for bad pay sucks, especially when you can’t reap from your investment of being a specialist for the first tool. Or the old tool is changed for bad reasons.
qbasic_forever 3y ago
Because for this work it's cheaper for the company to hire a new person with a lower starting wage vs. keep employing and paying higher wages to more experienced workers. It's not the worker's fault they can't learn the new tool (they absolutely can learn it). It's capitalism's fault for valuing workers only for the cost of their labor and nothing else.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > It's capitalism's fault for valuing workers only for the cost of their labor and nothing else. Sigh. The value you're talking about here is the cost of their labour. This is like a business owner saying that employees should value their jobs differently to their salary. You're right in the sense that capitalism is fundamentally "people make agreements and decisions within what's available to them" but what's the actual issue you want capitalism to solve, that doesn't create one of the massive downsides that any of capitalism's former rivals has? E.g. monarchy can reward loyalty, but then so can capitalism. Monarchy can just also tell you to go die on a field if you don't kill the other king's people.
  - vkou 3y ago
    > Monarchy can just also tell you to go die on a field if you don't kill the other king's people. What makes you think that capitalism won't do the same to you? Capitalist[1] societies engage in pointless, bloody wars all the time. [1] And communist, and other -ist.

asow92 3y ago

If you can't learn a new tool then you're just a tool yourself.

ethbr0 3y ago
Engineers dancing around the fundamental constraints of reality deserve a bit more respect than folks complaining about learning the latest JS-of-the-month, all of which follow basic comp sci patterns.
- asow92 3y ago
  You talk as if they're smart enough to learn something new. They're either smart or they're not. Which one is it?
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Here's something new, perhaps: some things are much easier to learn than others.
    - asow92 3y ago
      Obviously, but that doesn't change my mind here. If you're in the 1% of top performers, you have the cognitive ability to learn new things.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        > Obviously, but that doesn't change my mind here. > If you're in the 1% of top performers, you have the cognitive ability to learn new things. I had to stop and admire the subtle self-deprecating humour on display between those two statements. Well played!
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        3y ago

stanfordkid 3y ago

Sounds like the ideal type of trade to build a union for?

KennyBlanken 3y ago
Ah yes, Texas, well known for its labor rights. When the cops are complaining about union-busting...
systemvoltage 3y ago
This will be the end of semiconductor industry.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  The end of it in the US. It'll carry on fine elsewhere.
  - systemvoltage 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    That's why TSMC became competitive in the 2000s.

bob1029 3y ago

It's the best possible bootcamp for engineers if you are lucky enough to land a role in systems engineering (or its equivalent). If you actually pay attention and participate, you will learn about ways of troubleshooting that will stick with you forever. The notion of making an assumption is completely exorcised from your body - in this industry, the consequences of bad assumptions cost at least a million bucks always. You might also learn helpful terms like "value-add" that will guide your business sense for the rest of your life. I can see why a lot of people hate the idea of semiconductor manufacturing. It is the apex of "by the books" while simultaneously exhibiting the most incredible shiny technology on the face of the planet. Being forced to follow all of these rules and procedures to get at the shiny tech rubs a lot of people the wrong way. "What do you mean I can't take my smart phone into the office? Y'all make its memory here." The pay is also arguably pretty bad unless you lock in for life. I would say you get what you want out of it, just like anything. If you walk in with an entitlement mindset and expect the knowledge to be forced into your brain, you are in for a really shitty ride just as you describe. If you walk in thinking "I'll bust my ass here for 3-5 years and learn what I can", you will have a much better experience. I didn't even know I wanted to write software full time until I was sitting in a cubicle at Samsung's ATX office for a few years. In my opinion, if you aren't sure what you want to do but you really love all things tech, why the hell not? Try it out. It was a great stepping stone for me.

sgarland 3y ago
I also transitioned into tech from Samsung ATX. Working nights in Cleans, doing a weekend Master’s at UT for SWE, and writing shitty CRUD at work to replace even shittier Excel sheets. I didn’t particularly like the job, but I’m grateful for the opportunities that time and effort has given me.