5 ms·

I think your take on Cersai would only happen in a period of the Middle Ages, with week kings and a strong church. Right before the Middle Ages there are many

by msh 3y ago

I think your take on Cersai would only happen in a period of the Middle Ages, with week kings and a strong church. Right before the Middle Ages there are many examples like it, for example Charlemagne and his line. If they and the pope disagreed it was the pope that got the short end of the stick. There was also many example of viking kings and warlords converting to christianity and back again. Right after the Middle Ages Henry the eight is another example.

the_af 3y ago
A couple of points of clarification are needed: It's not "my take", it's ACOUP's (though, to be fair, I'm convinced by it): https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-acquisitions-how-it-wasnt-game-of-thrones-and-the-middle-ages-part-ii/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-acquisitions-how-it-wasnt-... Second, GoT seems to fit within the Late Middle Ages / Early Modern period. In fact, ACOUP points up that the armor worn on the TV show at times looks to be Early Modern / Renaissance! If this was Early Middle Ages, there would have to be a lot more chainmail and far less plate mail. The Early Modern period (not the Middle Ages) would make more sense for acts of sacrilege shown in GoT because it also saw the rise of professional armies who didn't act because of deference to neither church nor king, but because of pay. But besides Bronn and the mercenary companies outside Westeros, most of the armies within Westeros proper seem to be motivated by allegiances to noble houses, and so they must defer to tradition and religion. Third, ACOUP is talking of religion in general. There are some characters in GoT that believe in their religion (possibly some of the Starks and their "Old Gods", Melissandre and her Lord of Light) but most of the world of Westeros is skeptical of any religions at all, not just the mainstream one. But as ACOUP points out: > "This is the mistake my students make – they don’t believe medieval Catholicism or Roman paganism, and so they weakly assume that no one (or at least, none of the ‘really smart’ people) at the time really did either. Of course this is wrong: People in the past believed their own religion." The vikings before converting to Christianity had their own gods, and they truly believed in them. In contrast, most of the nobles of Westeros don't believe in any gods, pagan or otherwise. Which a serious historical mistake if one is trying to reflect -- albeit with fantasy divergences -- "real medieval society". I bet you Charlemagne truly believed there was a god judging him.
- cyberax 3y ago
  On the other hand, not having strong religious feelings was also pretty common in the Asian history. Especially in China.
  - the_af 3y ago
    I thought GRRM was trying to set up a fictional European Middle Ages, at least in Westeros? In any case, his depiction of "Asian" nomadic cultures is hilariously unrealistic as well. I recommend ACOUP's chapters on the Dothraki; their culture doesn't fit anything from the real-world, be it Huns, Mongols or Native Americans, all quoted by GRRM as references (so it's valid to mention if he misused them). Someone mentioned GRRM seems to be using stereotype, not reality, as reference! Which is fine and dandy, except GRRM claimed he was aiming for realism...
    - cyberax 3y ago
      > I thought GRRM was trying to set up a fictional European Middle Ages, at least in Westeros? Sure. I'm just noting that having cultures that don't care too much about religion is not unprecedented in the actual history.
      - the_af 3y ago
        But what does this have to do with whether the fictional world of "A Song of Ice and Fire" is more or less realistic in their depiction of "medieval society" [1] than the epic romances that came before, and that he compares to "Disneyland Middle Ages"? [1, again]. We are discussing GRRM's fictional depiction of a "realistic" middle ages, with a focus on Europe but some side-dishes of Asian steppe cultures -- which according to ACOUP he also gets wrong. Which wouldn't matter if GRRM didn't assert his depiction was more realistic! ---- [1] George Martin's words.
  - bashmelek 3y ago
    That seems to contradict my understanding of Chinese history and culture. Historically they seem to be strongly spiritual like any people, and government support for religions. I admit most of exposure is from literature and not much more. Could you elaborate on the point?

by msh 3y ago

the_af 3y ago

A couple of points of clarification are needed: It's not "my take", it's ACOUP's (though, to be fair, I'm convinced by it): https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-acquisitions-how-it-wasnt-game-of-thrones-and-the-middle-ages-part-ii/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-acquisitions-how-it-wasnt-... Second, GoT seems to fit within the Late Middle Ages / Early Modern period. In fact, ACOUP points up that the armor worn on the TV show at times looks to be Early Modern / Renaissance! If this was Early Middle Ages, there would have to be a lot more chainmail and far less plate mail. The Early Modern period (not the Middle Ages) would make more sense for acts of sacrilege shown in GoT because it also saw the rise of professional armies who didn't act because of deference to neither church nor king, but because of pay. But besides Bronn and the mercenary companies outside Westeros, most of the armies within Westeros proper seem to be motivated by allegiances to noble houses, and so they must defer to tradition and religion. Third, ACOUP is talking of religion in general. There are some characters in GoT that believe in their religion (possibly some of the Starks and their "Old Gods", Melissandre and her Lord of Light) but most of the world of Westeros is skeptical of any religions at all, not just the mainstream one. But as ACOUP points out: > "This is the mistake my students make – they don’t believe medieval Catholicism or Roman paganism, and so they weakly assume that no one (or at least, none of the ‘really smart’ people) at the time really did either. Of course this is wrong: People in the past believed their own religion." The vikings before converting to Christianity had their own gods, and they truly believed in them. In contrast, most of the nobles of Westeros don't believe in any gods, pagan or otherwise. Which a serious historical mistake if one is trying to reflect -- albeit with fantasy divergences -- "real medieval society". I bet you Charlemagne truly believed there was a god judging him.

cyberax 3y ago
On the other hand, not having strong religious feelings was also pretty common in the Asian history. Especially in China.
- the_af 3y ago
  I thought GRRM was trying to set up a fictional European Middle Ages, at least in Westeros? In any case, his depiction of "Asian" nomadic cultures is hilariously unrealistic as well. I recommend ACOUP's chapters on the Dothraki; their culture doesn't fit anything from the real-world, be it Huns, Mongols or Native Americans, all quoted by GRRM as references (so it's valid to mention if he misused them). Someone mentioned GRRM seems to be using stereotype, not reality, as reference! Which is fine and dandy, except GRRM claimed he was aiming for realism...
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > I thought GRRM was trying to set up a fictional European Middle Ages, at least in Westeros? Sure. I'm just noting that having cultures that don't care too much about religion is not unprecedented in the actual history.
    - the_af 3y ago
      But what does this have to do with whether the fictional world of "A Song of Ice and Fire" is more or less realistic in their depiction of "medieval society" [1] than the epic romances that came before, and that he compares to "Disneyland Middle Ages"? [1, again]. We are discussing GRRM's fictional depiction of a "realistic" middle ages, with a focus on Europe but some side-dishes of Asian steppe cultures -- which according to ACOUP he also gets wrong. Which wouldn't matter if GRRM didn't assert his depiction was more realistic! ---- [1] George Martin's words.
- bashmelek 3y ago
  That seems to contradict my understanding of Chinese history and culture. Historically they seem to be strongly spiritual like any people, and government support for religions. I admit most of exposure is from literature and not much more. Could you elaborate on the point?