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The fab is for chips that are something along the lines of 4 generations old, and that's ignoring that they won't start manufacturing until 2027... This has ab

The fab is for chips that are something along the lines of 4 generations old, and that's ignoring that they won't start manufacturing until 2027... This has absolutely nothing to do with AI or LLMs. Generally these are automation chips for machinery or vehicles. "Microsoft made him walk that one back real quick" This sounds like a weird fan fiction. OpenAI openly negotiates with EU governments. No one walked back anything.

posterboy 3y ago
Suppose you need automation for machinery in a cutting edge fab, that would be much further in the future? They could ship from Taiwan, so the idea that this is a back up does not sound entirely wrong. Sounds like fan-fiction, too, true enough. AMD is already there and Intel is building in Lower Saxony. Must be something about the region, perhaps the chemistry since the Erzgebirge has a history in mining. Meisner Porcelain for example beat Venice and replaced good old China (pun intended). > No one walked back anything. I'm not sure about that (haven't heard this story). My impression is that EU sticks to discretion very much, and they aren't free from corruption. The US on the other hand is not known to play nice with matters of law in international affairs (Edit: shouldn't have said "international law"). Taiwan is a partner was the point, I believe. Of course they aren't going to give away the crown jewels either.
- logifail 3y ago
  > Must be something about the region [snip] Following Occam's razor, perhaps it's that it's just cheaper? "The monthly pay ranking of German states is headed by Hamburg with 3,619 euros, followed by Baden-Württemberg with 3,546 euros and Hesse with 3,494 euros. The lowest salaries are received by employees in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania with an average of 2,391 euros. Slightly more is earned in Thuringia with 2,459 euros and Saxony with 2,479 euros."[0] [0] https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/business/pay-in-germany-national-average-and-regional-differences https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/business/pay-in-germany-...
  - posterboy 3y ago
    Yes, I was thinking closeness to the Polish border must have something to do with it, as is also pertinent with Tesla's giga factory.
  - _Microft 3y ago
    The focus on electronics there goes back to the times of the GDR already when the "VEB Kombinat Robotron" was located in Saxony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron
    - logifail 3y ago
      > The focus on electronics there [..] Can you expand on this claim? (I'm deliberately resisting quoting sources listing German regions top exports!)
      - flohofwoe 3y ago
        TL;DR at the end of the 80's East Germany had paradoxically a more capable semiconductor industry than West Germany (not in terms of innovation, it trailed the state of the art by 5..10 years, but definitely in terms of scale), this was mainly because the Eastern Bloc was cut off from western microelectronics because of the COCOM embargo and had to bootstrap their own microelectronics industry, while Western Europe could just buy their chips on the world market from the cheapest bidder. Those centers of technology with their attached universities were mainly located in Dresden (Robotron) and Jena (Carl Zeiss) and some smaller locations sprinkled over the southern half of East Germany. This 'micro-electronics tradition' carried over into the 90's after the reunification and continues until the present time.
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      To expand upon your comment, my German co-worker explained to me that Dresden was a high-tech / semi-conductor industrial hub during GDR / East Germany. It was mostly state planning to build unis and industry in same place. This was continued after Germany reunited. Given their lower cost of living advantages, I can understand why Dresden was selected. From a political view, I can imagine that German gov't officials wants to encourage economic development of former GDR, as it continues to lag West Germany.
yk 3y ago
The technology is roughly 10 years behind, but in the scenario that the replacement capability becomes important is something like Trump fumbles the great power competition and US and China have a nice nuclear moment. And frankly making do with Haswell era CPUs is lamentable but as far as nuclear exchanges go not that bad.
- demondemidi 3y ago
  Yes, that is intentional. There's more to the CPU market than the next gaming platform.
- cpursley 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - exceptione 3y ago
    It is a bit off-topic, but the Biden admin hasn't done anything like that indeed. In fact, nuclear exchange is self-destruction. No one is stupid enough to do that, even Trump wouldn't be. So parent's remark is off. For chips to be blocked going to Germany doesn't thus require a nuclear exchange. You rather should think of smth like military aggression from China towards Taiwan.
    - cpursley 3y ago
      Shooting down the Chinese ballon and arming Ukraine with long range weapons aren't potentially acts of provocation against nuclear powers? Reverse the roles. American ballon. Mexico getting armed against the US by a foreign superpower and sworn enemy. Would the US tolerate those acts?
      - cpursley 3y ago
        People forget that JFK nearly nuked the USSR over the Cuban missile crisis (which was a response to NATO missiles in Turkey, ironically enough).

posterboy 3y ago

Suppose you need automation for machinery in a cutting edge fab, that would be much further in the future? They could ship from Taiwan, so the idea that this is a back up does not sound entirely wrong. Sounds like fan-fiction, too, true enough. AMD is already there and Intel is building in Lower Saxony. Must be something about the region, perhaps the chemistry since the Erzgebirge has a history in mining. Meisner Porcelain for example beat Venice and replaced good old China (pun intended). > No one walked back anything. I'm not sure about that (haven't heard this story). My impression is that EU sticks to discretion very much, and they aren't free from corruption. The US on the other hand is not known to play nice with matters of law in international affairs (Edit: shouldn't have said "international law"). Taiwan is a partner was the point, I believe. Of course they aren't going to give away the crown jewels either.

logifail 3y ago
> Must be something about the region [snip] Following Occam's razor, perhaps it's that it's just cheaper? "The monthly pay ranking of German states is headed by Hamburg with 3,619 euros, followed by Baden-Württemberg with 3,546 euros and Hesse with 3,494 euros. The lowest salaries are received by employees in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania with an average of 2,391 euros. Slightly more is earned in Thuringia with 2,459 euros and Saxony with 2,479 euros."[0] [0] https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/business/pay-in-germany-national-average-and-regional-differences https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/business/pay-in-germany-...
- posterboy 3y ago
  Yes, I was thinking closeness to the Polish border must have something to do with it, as is also pertinent with Tesla's giga factory.
- _Microft 3y ago
  The focus on electronics there goes back to the times of the GDR already when the "VEB Kombinat Robotron" was located in Saxony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron
  - logifail 3y ago
    > The focus on electronics there [..] Can you expand on this claim? (I'm deliberately resisting quoting sources listing German regions top exports!)
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      TL;DR at the end of the 80's East Germany had paradoxically a more capable semiconductor industry than West Germany (not in terms of innovation, it trailed the state of the art by 5..10 years, but definitely in terms of scale), this was mainly because the Eastern Bloc was cut off from western microelectronics because of the COCOM embargo and had to bootstrap their own microelectronics industry, while Western Europe could just buy their chips on the world market from the cheapest bidder. Those centers of technology with their attached universities were mainly located in Dresden (Robotron) and Jena (Carl Zeiss) and some smaller locations sprinkled over the southern half of East Germany. This 'micro-electronics tradition' carried over into the 90's after the reunification and continues until the present time.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    To expand upon your comment, my German co-worker explained to me that Dresden was a high-tech / semi-conductor industrial hub during GDR / East Germany. It was mostly state planning to build unis and industry in same place. This was continued after Germany reunited. Given their lower cost of living advantages, I can understand why Dresden was selected. From a political view, I can imagine that German gov't officials wants to encourage economic development of former GDR, as it continues to lag West Germany.

yk 3y ago

The technology is roughly 10 years behind, but in the scenario that the replacement capability becomes important is something like Trump fumbles the great power competition and US and China have a nice nuclear moment. And frankly making do with Haswell era CPUs is lamentable but as far as nuclear exchanges go not that bad.

demondemidi 3y ago
Yes, that is intentional. There's more to the CPU market than the next gaming platform.
cpursley 3y ago
[flagged]
- exceptione 3y ago
  It is a bit off-topic, but the Biden admin hasn't done anything like that indeed. In fact, nuclear exchange is self-destruction. No one is stupid enough to do that, even Trump wouldn't be. So parent's remark is off. For chips to be blocked going to Germany doesn't thus require a nuclear exchange. You rather should think of smth like military aggression from China towards Taiwan.
  - cpursley 3y ago
    Shooting down the Chinese ballon and arming Ukraine with long range weapons aren't potentially acts of provocation against nuclear powers? Reverse the roles. American ballon. Mexico getting armed against the US by a foreign superpower and sworn enemy. Would the US tolerate those acts?
    - cpursley 3y ago
      People forget that JFK nearly nuked the USSR over the Cuban missile crisis (which was a response to NATO missiles in Turkey, ironically enough).