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> WhatsApp end-to-end encryption or even better so they claim… not that fb has ever given us a reason to trust them.

mihaic 3y ago
Why risk lying about something like this? It makes no business sense, and I can't imagine the Facebook employees being so loyal as not to spill the beans here.
- EGreg 3y ago
  Really? Then explain this: https://newatlas.com/computers/facebook-not-secretly-listening-conversations/ https://newatlas.com/computers/facebook-not-secretly-listeni... And this: https://www.pcmag.com/news/facebook-app-caught-activating-phone-camera-without-permission https://www.pcmag.com/news/facebook-app-caught-activating-ph... And this: https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-notification/ https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-not... And of course this: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-facebook-undermines-privacy-protections-for-its-2-billion-whatsapp-users https://www.propublica.org/article/how-facebook-undermines-p...
  - everybodyknows 3y ago
    Buried in the Propublica piece (2021) is the ELI5 of the fundamental uncloaking mechanism: >WhatsApp reviewers gain access to private content when users hit the “report” button on the app, identifying a message as allegedly violating the platform’s terms of service. This forwards five messages — the allegedly offending one along with the four previous ones in the exchange ... This may not have much to do with the more specific abuse case of criminal financial conspiracies.
    - EGreg 3y ago
      That’s not the point. The issue is whether Facebook has surreptitiously gotten data you don’t think they’d be getting, and get caught doing it. With regard to video audio and metadata the answer is YES. Will you now trust them with your “encrypted” conversation content?
- prmoustache 3y ago
  I am still waiting for someone to explain me why you can forward medias (image or videos) in whatsapp to new recipients without uploading it again completely if those images and videos are encrypted with the public keys of your recipients. Since the forward is instantaneous and not involve a reupload, it looks to me the files are cached on the servers. If the recipient can see thee files and they are encrypted, it means that the server itself encrypted it using their public cryptographic key. If the server can do that, it means it either: - can decrypt your own files - cache them unencrypted Correct me if I am wrong. It is easy to test by sending a large video recording over a crappy connection, then forwarding it to another recipient. First upload can literally take a minute or more, the second action is immediate.
  - bryan_w 3y ago
    Consider the following: You encrypt and upload the media to the storage server. You share the download URL and key with person #1 Now how long would it take to forward that same message with the url and key to person #2...n?
    - prmoustache 3y ago
      Are you saying they would be using symmetric encryption?
      - bryan_w 3y ago
        Not necessarily, sender generates a private key for the piece of media, and shares the public key for that media item along with the download location to person 1&2 over their encrypted chat channels.
- ablated_maquis 3y ago
  Zoom risked lying out this. https://theintercept.com/2020/03/31/zoom-meeting-encryption/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/31/zoom-meeting-encryption/
phyrex 3y ago
You don’t need to trust Meta, there’s tons of regulatory oversight

Why risk lying about something like this? It makes no business sense, and I can't imagine the Facebook employees being so loyal as not to spill the beans here.

EGreg 3y ago
Really? Then explain this: https://newatlas.com/computers/facebook-not-secretly-listening-conversations/ https://newatlas.com/computers/facebook-not-secretly-listeni... And this: https://www.pcmag.com/news/facebook-app-caught-activating-phone-camera-without-permission https://www.pcmag.com/news/facebook-app-caught-activating-ph... And this: https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-notification/ https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-facebook-data-share-not... And of course this: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-facebook-undermines-privacy-protections-for-its-2-billion-whatsapp-users https://www.propublica.org/article/how-facebook-undermines-p...
- everybodyknows 3y ago
  Buried in the Propublica piece (2021) is the ELI5 of the fundamental uncloaking mechanism: >WhatsApp reviewers gain access to private content when users hit the “report” button on the app, identifying a message as allegedly violating the platform’s terms of service. This forwards five messages — the allegedly offending one along with the four previous ones in the exchange ... This may not have much to do with the more specific abuse case of criminal financial conspiracies.
  - EGreg 3y ago
    That’s not the point. The issue is whether Facebook has surreptitiously gotten data you don’t think they’d be getting, and get caught doing it. With regard to video audio and metadata the answer is YES. Will you now trust them with your “encrypted” conversation content?
prmoustache 3y ago
I am still waiting for someone to explain me why you can forward medias (image or videos) in whatsapp to new recipients without uploading it again completely if those images and videos are encrypted with the public keys of your recipients. Since the forward is instantaneous and not involve a reupload, it looks to me the files are cached on the servers. If the recipient can see thee files and they are encrypted, it means that the server itself encrypted it using their public cryptographic key. If the server can do that, it means it either: - can decrypt your own files - cache them unencrypted Correct me if I am wrong. It is easy to test by sending a large video recording over a crappy connection, then forwarding it to another recipient. First upload can literally take a minute or more, the second action is immediate.
- bryan_w 3y ago
  Consider the following: You encrypt and upload the media to the storage server. You share the download URL and key with person #1 Now how long would it take to forward that same message with the url and key to person #2...n?
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    Are you saying they would be using symmetric encryption?
    - bryan_w 3y ago
      Not necessarily, sender generates a private key for the piece of media, and shares the public key for that media item along with the download location to person 1&2 over their encrypted chat channels.
ablated_maquis 3y ago
Zoom risked lying out this. https://theintercept.com/2020/03/31/zoom-meeting-encryption/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/31/zoom-meeting-encryption/

phyrex 3y ago

You don’t need to trust Meta, there’s tons of regulatory oversight