7 ms·

Nothing shows the power of unions more than the lengths companies go to fight them. In a Union there is Strength.

by oldjim69 3y ago

jvmfjvfjvf 3y ago
What strength do they have? Unions routinely cause jobs to be eliminated and offshored.
- tyree731 3y ago
  Would Amazon drivers unionizing cause Amazon to offshore drivers? If Amazon drivers unionizing would cause Amazon to eliminate drivers, does that suggest unions lack strength, or that unions have strength that Amazon fears?
  - jvmfjvfjvf 3y ago
    Amazon drivers unionizing would cause Amazon to hire FedEx or DHL. Unions don't have a monopoly on drivers.
    - venv 3y ago
      And would the drivers be paid more or less (and what of other conditions)?
    - somsak2 3y ago
      the whole reason Amazon has it's own drivers is because they can pay them way less. your example would actually represent a big success since ups/dhl/FedEx drivers have much better job security and benefits.
- otikik 3y ago
  Yes, it's the unions, not the execs.
- tech_ken 3y ago
  Well no, it's literally the employers who move their capital to regimes which allow more exploitative working arrangements to boost their profit margin. That they are so unwilling to accept a reduce share of the company's net income that they will pick up their toys and move to Bangladesh just indicates that we need to be more aggressive against capital mobility.
- akomtu 3y ago
  For unions, workers are the profit center. For corporations, workers are the expense.
- dimator 3y ago
  Blaming the unions for corporate greed (going offshore for cheaper labor) is utterly hilarious.
epivosism 3y ago
This sounds like just the opposite of a capitalist monopoly from the other side. Why would I want any party to control the way a market works? You'll get stagnation both ways. see many historical examples where both monopolies and unions refused change and were overturned, leading to failures. i.e. Detroit I want a functioning competitive market where workers and firms compete and have to adjust and innovate to fit what people want. Neither side should be able to lock down and define the way things must work.
- wpietri 3y ago
  > Nothing shows the power of capitalist monopolies more than the lengths unions go to fight them. Oh wait You say this as if it's some clever proof, but I'd say it's literally correct. It's why all sorts of people in all sorts of countries fight capitalist monopolies. And, I should add, for all sorts of reasons. I believe strongly in the power of markets. They're incredible optimization machines. Which is why I'm also for strong markets. Monopolies are just as anti-market as the most ardent communist. People who believe in free enterprise should all fight monopolistic behavior.
  - epivosism 3y ago
    Yeah I was saying that the original claim was self-contradictory since if you use "resistance exists" as a proof that something is good, then you've already admitted that anti-unionism is good too, since it's also strongly resisted.
    - venv 3y ago
      GP said it was proof of power. Power can be used for good or ill.
    - wpietri 3y ago
      Rewriting a comment after somebody has already responded is very rude. Now your comment is differently wrong, but I'm sure not going to bother with it or you given that you may just keep rewriting the thing I'm responding to.
splitstud 3y ago
[dead]
say_it_as_it_is 3y ago
[flagged]
- oldjim69 3y ago
  The post office offers amazing service and its workers have been a key part of the labour movement. Also next day delivery is almost never an option where I live so I don't bother with it.
- wnevets 3y ago
  > Let's see how important union strength is when you don't receive next-day deliveries. That doesn't happen now, I haven't seen next-day since the start of COVID.
- CJefferson 3y ago
  The Unionised Royal Mail seems to manage next day delivery fine. Does any country have a unionised mail service where you wait 3 weeks, or even 1 week, for packages?
- digdugdirk 3y ago
  Following this logic, would you say that the only way to guarantee same day delivery be to legalize slavery for Amazon delivery drivers?
- vkou 3y ago
  My life has been just fine without next-day deliveries. It has also been fine without being the master of a slave plantation, or having a live-in servant that works for pennies and sleeps in a closet, or a number of other things that would make it more comfortable and convenient at the expense of others. --- (It does, unfortunately, depend on a large number of people growing my food, making my clothes, and soldering my electronics largely being treated like shit, but none of those are immutable facts of the world.)
- phailhaus 3y ago
  If next-day delivery requires unfair working conditions, then yes we should drop it. However, it's a false dichotomy to pretend as if the alternative to "next day" is "three weeks."

Nothing shows the power of unions more than the lengths companies go to fight them. In a Union there is Strength.

jvmfjvfjvf 3y ago

What strength do they have? Unions routinely cause jobs to be eliminated and offshored.

tyree731 3y ago
Would Amazon drivers unionizing cause Amazon to offshore drivers? If Amazon drivers unionizing would cause Amazon to eliminate drivers, does that suggest unions lack strength, or that unions have strength that Amazon fears?
- jvmfjvfjvf 3y ago
  Amazon drivers unionizing would cause Amazon to hire FedEx or DHL. Unions don't have a monopoly on drivers.
  - venv 3y ago
    And would the drivers be paid more or less (and what of other conditions)?
  - somsak2 3y ago
    the whole reason Amazon has it's own drivers is because they can pay them way less. your example would actually represent a big success since ups/dhl/FedEx drivers have much better job security and benefits.
otikik 3y ago
Yes, it's the unions, not the execs.
tech_ken 3y ago
Well no, it's literally the employers who move their capital to regimes which allow more exploitative working arrangements to boost their profit margin. That they are so unwilling to accept a reduce share of the company's net income that they will pick up their toys and move to Bangladesh just indicates that we need to be more aggressive against capital mobility.
akomtu 3y ago
For unions, workers are the profit center. For corporations, workers are the expense.
dimator 3y ago
Blaming the unions for corporate greed (going offshore for cheaper labor) is utterly hilarious.

epivosism 3y ago

This sounds like just the opposite of a capitalist monopoly from the other side. Why would I want any party to control the way a market works? You'll get stagnation both ways. see many historical examples where both monopolies and unions refused change and were overturned, leading to failures. i.e. Detroit I want a functioning competitive market where workers and firms compete and have to adjust and innovate to fit what people want. Neither side should be able to lock down and define the way things must work.

wpietri 3y ago
> Nothing shows the power of capitalist monopolies more than the lengths unions go to fight them. Oh wait You say this as if it's some clever proof, but I'd say it's literally correct. It's why all sorts of people in all sorts of countries fight capitalist monopolies. And, I should add, for all sorts of reasons. I believe strongly in the power of markets. They're incredible optimization machines. Which is why I'm also for strong markets. Monopolies are just as anti-market as the most ardent communist. People who believe in free enterprise should all fight monopolistic behavior.
- epivosism 3y ago
  Yeah I was saying that the original claim was self-contradictory since if you use "resistance exists" as a proof that something is good, then you've already admitted that anti-unionism is good too, since it's also strongly resisted.
  - venv 3y ago
    GP said it was proof of power. Power can be used for good or ill.
  - wpietri 3y ago
    Rewriting a comment after somebody has already responded is very rude. Now your comment is differently wrong, but I'm sure not going to bother with it or you given that you may just keep rewriting the thing I'm responding to.

splitstud 3y ago

[dead]

say_it_as_it_is 3y ago

[flagged]

oldjim69 3y ago
The post office offers amazing service and its workers have been a key part of the labour movement. Also next day delivery is almost never an option where I live so I don't bother with it.
wnevets 3y ago
> Let's see how important union strength is when you don't receive next-day deliveries. That doesn't happen now, I haven't seen next-day since the start of COVID.
CJefferson 3y ago
The Unionised Royal Mail seems to manage next day delivery fine. Does any country have a unionised mail service where you wait 3 weeks, or even 1 week, for packages?
digdugdirk 3y ago
Following this logic, would you say that the only way to guarantee same day delivery be to legalize slavery for Amazon delivery drivers?
vkou 3y ago
My life has been just fine without next-day deliveries. It has also been fine without being the master of a slave plantation, or having a live-in servant that works for pennies and sleeps in a closet, or a number of other things that would make it more comfortable and convenient at the expense of others. --- (It does, unfortunately, depend on a large number of people growing my food, making my clothes, and soldering my electronics largely being treated like shit, but none of those are immutable facts of the world.)
phailhaus 3y ago
If next-day delivery requires unfair working conditions, then yes we should drop it. However, it's a false dichotomy to pretend as if the alternative to "next day" is "three weeks."