10 ms·

Navy in Middle-Earth

73 points by aldarion 3y ago

TRiG_Ireland 3y ago
Someone with the username Aldarion is interested in the Middle-earth navy. There's a surprise!
silvester23 3y ago
If you are into this kind of in-depth look into fantasy worlds, you might enjoy the blog A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry (https://acoup.blog https://acoup.blog). For a related article see, e.g. this one: https://acoup.blog/2019/06/14/collections-the-siege-of-gondor-part-vi-black-sails-and-gleaming-banners/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/14/collections-the-siege-of-gondo... It has a bit of a different angle in that it critiques works of fantasy in terms of realism, feasibility and consistency in a pretty nitpicky way (the hint's in the name, really). Still I find it mostly good-humoured.
- the_af 3y ago
  What's pretty interesting about ACOUP is that when contrasting Tolkien's Middle Earth with George Martin's Game of Thrones, from a realism perspective... it's Middle Earth that ends up winning. If you peruse the many articles of this blog on both works of fiction, you'll realize the author (a scholar on medieval history) thinks Lord of the Rings is more realistic (in scope, military logistics, scale of the armies and even tactics) than Game of Thrones. This was surprising to me, because GRRM "sells" Game of Thrones as a fantastic [1] but "more realistic" [2] take on the Middle Ages. ACOUP takes him to task, because almost every "realistic" detail in GoT is, according to him, wrong. This also includes the purported cruelty of nobles towards the populace, GRRM's take on religion, etc. Let me delve on that last point: ACOUP asserts that GoT's take on religion is wrong. In GoT -- especially in the TV show, but also in the books -- the take on religion of many major players is cynical. While some characters are fanatics or really believe, others are skeptical. Most of the Lannisters seem skeptical of any gods. Cersei goes so far as to blow out the Sept (cathedral), an act that in the real Middle Ages would see her hanged, burned or beheaded, and would lose her the support of her army. ACOUP makes the point that the nobility and kings of the Middle Ages really believed in their religion and gods! ---- [1] after all, it's a fantasy work with dragons and zombies. Then again, LotR has orcs, elves, ghosts and wizards and it manages to be more realistic! [2] George Martin: "I wanted my books to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like, and I was also reacting to a lot of fantasy fiction. Most stories depict what I call the ‘Disneyland Middle Ages’—there are princes and princesses and knights in shining armor, but they didn’t want to show what those societies meant and how they functioned."
  - OscarCunningham 3y ago
    I agree. I think that the main difference between LotR and GoT is that LotR is told in a style similar to the actual legendary epics and epic sagas that we have from history. These stories (and in particular the written versions that survive for us) were about the nobility and for the nobility. Because of this many everyday details are assumed and skipped over, and unpleasant or ignoble facts are ignored or glossed over. So for example LotR features half-orcs as creatures, and the text describes their creation as Saruman's most evil act. But it doesn't explicitly spell out that this likely involved rape of human women by male orcs. Whereas GoT directly describes Daenerys being raped from her own point of view. This doesn't mean that LotR is less realistic. It describes a similar set of events as GoT, but they are presented in a different way. I think this is what people are sensing when they say LotR is 'less realistic', even though GoT is actually the worse match to historical reality.
    - optimalsolver 3y ago
      Also, what happened to Elrond's wife is hinted at, but never directly spelled out, because Tolkien rightly assumes we don't need the explicit details to be horrified by it. In GoT, it would be several pages/several minutes of screen time. It's why I could never get into the latter. Just goes for the absolute, lowest common denominator every time, but apparently that's what makes "grown up, serious" fantasy.
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        I suppose it also has the benefit that the works are child-readable. Little me thought she was tortured by beating and such.
      - aldarion 3y ago
        Tolkien was actually the master of fridge logic... and fridge horror. Martin describes everything in detail... with Tolkien, he only hints at things, but when you understand things he is hinting at... let's just say that Middle Earth has a lot in common with Cthulhu Mythos.
- aldarion 3y ago
  I actually read that blog a lot. Author really goes deep into detail, and all articles are excellent.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    I love how accessible it is. His willingness to talk about where fantasy stories and video games hit and miss the mark make it so much easier to get into a post.
h2odragon 3y ago
This is the kinda geek who should've been involved in writing scripts for "middle earth prequels."
ssabev 3y ago
Here for this content. Also, why is that person not the one who did the Amazon series. The Tolkien fan in me is cringing heavily when observing the "plot" of the Rings of Power
- tekla 3y ago
  The Amazon series is not about making a good LOTR movie. It's about making money for the studios and also removing any/all sympathy for the striking writers. Its incredibly insidious in that way.
  - bob1029 3y ago
    ROP is clearly just using the Tolkien universe as wrapping paper. No one seems very serious about the lore anymore (or much of anything, really). The barest of efforts will still drive massive revenue so why bother trying very hard? You will find those that trip over themselves to defend ROP (and new Star Trek, et. al.). This is the target audience. I am not sure what convinced this audience that the new content is good - Part of me suspects it's mostly Stockholm syndrome. Those without the courage to adopt a more stoic attitude towards life. I feel like if more people would quit consuming pointless shit all the time, we might wind up with better pointless shit. As it stands, anything will generate some amount of revenue when you launch it on Netflix. This is really bad game theory for high quality content producers and the risk/reward tradeoff they have to negotiate with publishers. "We need 2 years to run the traps on lore" and "casting will be an on-going and convoluted process" == you are kicked out of the Netflix green light meeting without any additional courtesy.
    - cm2012 3y ago
      ROP is very very true to Tolkien themes, less so true to details, and I enjoy it very much. The opening theme alone represents the music of the ainur so well, I never skip it.
      - lizardking 3y ago
        Whether or not RoP is true to the themes of Tolkien or not or not is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, but it certainly has dispensed with the existing lore. I've read more than my fair share of Tolkien, and the show just doesn't feel like Tolkien to me. It's a serviceable Tolkien flavored generic fantasy show, if you are looking for that sort of thing. The tragedy is that the source material for the second age is so great yet they chose to take the show in a baffling and arbitrary direction, almost completely decoupled from the existing lore.
WesleyLivesay 3y ago
An interesting article. I think one of the major challenges in deep dives like this that rely heavily on HoME is that there is so much material that was clearly discarded, reconsidered, or reworked later in Tolkien's life. The steel ships/rockets/etc. of some of the earlier versions of Ar-Pharazon's fleet is a great example of this, which I don't think has a proper disclaimer in the article. It is one of the downsides of using HoME as a source, it is a collection of rough drafts over the course of Tolkien's entire life and the textual history, and evolution, is a critical part of discussing anything you find within especially the earlier volumes.
aaroninsf 3y ago
TIL Sauron was a flat earther.

73 points by aldarion 3y ago

Someone with the username Aldarion is interested in the Middle-earth navy. There's a surprise!

If you are into this kind of in-depth look into fantasy worlds, you might enjoy the blog A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry (https://acoup.blog https://acoup.blog). For a related article see, e.g. this one: https://acoup.blog/2019/06/14/collections-the-siege-of-gondor-part-vi-black-sails-and-gleaming-banners/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/14/collections-the-siege-of-gondo... It has a bit of a different angle in that it critiques works of fantasy in terms of realism, feasibility and consistency in a pretty nitpicky way (the hint's in the name, really). Still I find it mostly good-humoured.

the_af 3y ago
What's pretty interesting about ACOUP is that when contrasting Tolkien's Middle Earth with George Martin's Game of Thrones, from a realism perspective... it's Middle Earth that ends up winning. If you peruse the many articles of this blog on both works of fiction, you'll realize the author (a scholar on medieval history) thinks Lord of the Rings is more realistic (in scope, military logistics, scale of the armies and even tactics) than Game of Thrones. This was surprising to me, because GRRM "sells" Game of Thrones as a fantastic [1] but "more realistic" [2] take on the Middle Ages. ACOUP takes him to task, because almost every "realistic" detail in GoT is, according to him, wrong. This also includes the purported cruelty of nobles towards the populace, GRRM's take on religion, etc. Let me delve on that last point: ACOUP asserts that GoT's take on religion is wrong. In GoT -- especially in the TV show, but also in the books -- the take on religion of many major players is cynical. While some characters are fanatics or really believe, others are skeptical. Most of the Lannisters seem skeptical of any gods. Cersei goes so far as to blow out the Sept (cathedral), an act that in the real Middle Ages would see her hanged, burned or beheaded, and would lose her the support of her army. ACOUP makes the point that the nobility and kings of the Middle Ages really believed in their religion and gods! ---- [1] after all, it's a fantasy work with dragons and zombies. Then again, LotR has orcs, elves, ghosts and wizards and it manages to be more realistic! [2] George Martin: "I wanted my books to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like, and I was also reacting to a lot of fantasy fiction. Most stories depict what I call the ‘Disneyland Middle Ages’—there are princes and princesses and knights in shining armor, but they didn’t want to show what those societies meant and how they functioned."
- OscarCunningham 3y ago
  I agree. I think that the main difference between LotR and GoT is that LotR is told in a style similar to the actual legendary epics and epic sagas that we have from history. These stories (and in particular the written versions that survive for us) were about the nobility and for the nobility. Because of this many everyday details are assumed and skipped over, and unpleasant or ignoble facts are ignored or glossed over. So for example LotR features half-orcs as creatures, and the text describes their creation as Saruman's most evil act. But it doesn't explicitly spell out that this likely involved rape of human women by male orcs. Whereas GoT directly describes Daenerys being raped from her own point of view. This doesn't mean that LotR is less realistic. It describes a similar set of events as GoT, but they are presented in a different way. I think this is what people are sensing when they say LotR is 'less realistic', even though GoT is actually the worse match to historical reality.
  - optimalsolver 3y ago
    Also, what happened to Elrond's wife is hinted at, but never directly spelled out, because Tolkien rightly assumes we don't need the explicit details to be horrified by it. In GoT, it would be several pages/several minutes of screen time. It's why I could never get into the latter. Just goes for the absolute, lowest common denominator every time, but apparently that's what makes "grown up, serious" fantasy.
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      I suppose it also has the benefit that the works are child-readable. Little me thought she was tortured by beating and such.
    - aldarion 3y ago
      Tolkien was actually the master of fridge logic... and fridge horror. Martin describes everything in detail... with Tolkien, he only hints at things, but when you understand things he is hinting at... let's just say that Middle Earth has a lot in common with Cthulhu Mythos.
aldarion 3y ago
I actually read that blog a lot. Author really goes deep into detail, and all articles are excellent.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  I love how accessible it is. His willingness to talk about where fantasy stories and video games hit and miss the mark make it so much easier to get into a post.

h2odragon 3y ago

This is the kinda geek who should've been involved in writing scripts for "middle earth prequels."

ssabev 3y ago

Here for this content. Also, why is that person not the one who did the Amazon series. The Tolkien fan in me is cringing heavily when observing the "plot" of the Rings of Power

tekla 3y ago
The Amazon series is not about making a good LOTR movie. It's about making money for the studios and also removing any/all sympathy for the striking writers. Its incredibly insidious in that way.
- bob1029 3y ago
  ROP is clearly just using the Tolkien universe as wrapping paper. No one seems very serious about the lore anymore (or much of anything, really). The barest of efforts will still drive massive revenue so why bother trying very hard? You will find those that trip over themselves to defend ROP (and new Star Trek, et. al.). This is the target audience. I am not sure what convinced this audience that the new content is good - Part of me suspects it's mostly Stockholm syndrome. Those without the courage to adopt a more stoic attitude towards life. I feel like if more people would quit consuming pointless shit all the time, we might wind up with better pointless shit. As it stands, anything will generate some amount of revenue when you launch it on Netflix. This is really bad game theory for high quality content producers and the risk/reward tradeoff they have to negotiate with publishers. "We need 2 years to run the traps on lore" and "casting will be an on-going and convoluted process" == you are kicked out of the Netflix green light meeting without any additional courtesy.
  - cm2012 3y ago
    ROP is very very true to Tolkien themes, less so true to details, and I enjoy it very much. The opening theme alone represents the music of the ainur so well, I never skip it.
    - lizardking 3y ago
      Whether or not RoP is true to the themes of Tolkien or not or not is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, but it certainly has dispensed with the existing lore. I've read more than my fair share of Tolkien, and the show just doesn't feel like Tolkien to me. It's a serviceable Tolkien flavored generic fantasy show, if you are looking for that sort of thing. The tragedy is that the source material for the second age is so great yet they chose to take the show in a baffling and arbitrary direction, almost completely decoupled from the existing lore.

WesleyLivesay 3y ago

An interesting article. I think one of the major challenges in deep dives like this that rely heavily on HoME is that there is so much material that was clearly discarded, reconsidered, or reworked later in Tolkien's life. The steel ships/rockets/etc. of some of the earlier versions of Ar-Pharazon's fleet is a great example of this, which I don't think has a proper disclaimer in the article. It is one of the downsides of using HoME as a source, it is a collection of rough drafts over the course of Tolkien's entire life and the textual history, and evolution, is a critical part of discussing anything you find within especially the earlier volumes.

aaroninsf 3y ago

TIL Sauron was a flat earther.