4 ms·

The problem with Mexico is that their government has deep ties with organized crime.

by 29athrowaway 3y ago

bradleyjg 3y ago
I think that’s backwards. The problem is the extremely powerful cartels, one consequence is the subverted governments.
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  I'd love to read a great book about that chicken or egg problem and what role the US leadership and populace has played in forming or altering it.
  - xtracto 3y ago
    [Mexican living in Mexico here] There's a GREAT book about a lot of that, at least the Mexico side. It is called "Narcoland: Mexican Lords and Their-Godfathers" (original name "Los Señores del Narco) by Anabel Hernandez. She is a renowned journalist in Mexico who has lived threatened to death for several years, by several narcos and government officers. The book shows how the real "Lords" or "Godfathers" of Drug Trafficking are not some illiterate-uneducated kid from a small town in the middle of nowere in Mexico who becomes a "drug kingpin" with all connections and whatnot (CEOs and Cofounders who have struggled doing real word/legal relationships know that's a fairy tale), but rich people in Mexico, members of the elite class. That's why nothing real happens with cartels. The real bosses are people who have the real power, they control the government, control the narcos and control the money in Mexico. It's no conspiracy theory, everything is documented in that book. Here in Mexico society just "knows it". "Secreto a voces" they say it is, every state and city knows their narcos. To give you an example, in the "La Laguna" area of Durango, an ex-mayor, prominent businessman in the region and VERY rich guy named Carlos Herrera Araluce has been known to be a narco and in relationship with narcos. He was an elected officer (city mayor!!) with everybody knowing what he was doing. And the same is "known" in each state. You just have to ask some of the locals.
    - 29athrowaway 3y ago
      You don't seem to be familiar with the root cause. The revisionists rewriting history did they job very well.
      - xtracto 3y ago
        So? Feel free to educate me. This is HN and not reddit. We value meaningful contributions here. As it stands, your comment is just saying " I think you are wrong and have been brainwashed ". It doesnt add anything to the discussion. I'm not saying I have all truths, but I provided a book recommendation and gave my POV. I am positive you can do better.! I'll be authentically interested in learning your POV .
        29athrowaway 3y ago
        Read this most excellent comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37056453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37056453 The truth hidden from you your entire life in plain sight.
  - 29athrowaway 3y ago
    In reverse chronological order: 1940s: Mexico was the top producer of opiates during WW1 and WW2. After those conflicts ended, the opium planters turned to illegal trade. The opium poppy plant, the plant from which opium and related opiate drugs are produced, is not endemic to the Americas. 1882: The US Chinese exclusion act caused the expulsion of many Chinese, among them, opium poppy planters. Many of them relocated to to Mexico where they started planting opium again. 1860s: The Chinese immigrants involved in opium trade had opium dens in San Francisco and other places. They became addicted during an opium epidemic in China. 1839: The Chinese as a nation were against opium use, but the British forced them to legalize opium. All that is known as the Opium wars, which was the British weaponization of opium to extract wealth from China to make up for the lost money in the Americas. 1776: The British lost the American revolutionary war and started to accumulate a trade deficit with other countries, notably China. Conclusion: The East India Company was the first modern narco organization, Lord Palmerston is personally responsible for centuries of drug related violence. The guy was an educated person (in fact, 2x Prime Minister) and knew what he was doing all along. This comment will make everyone angry but it is the truth.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
I'm hoping that more investment and trade will make legal enterprise more profitable than the alternative.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  Well, I doubt doing things legally will ever be cheaper than illegally. I assume at some point the drug market will saturate and at that point why not use profits to expand into legal enterprises and push out any purely legal competitors?
  - pc86 3y ago
    It doesn't need to be cheaper when a possible outcome of the alternative is a bullet. There are always people who turn to illegalities because they're forced to, and would gladly make less money in order to lessen their chance of imprisonment or worse. The easier you make it to make a living legally, the more people will turn away from crime and the stronger they'll oppose it in general.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Ajedi32 3y ago
      That only works though if you approach the problem from both angles. Often attempts to create legal alternatives are accompanied by decreases in enforcement action against the illegal options (sometimes intentionally, sometimes as a natural consequence of the fact that you can no longer treat all possession as illegal).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > I doubt doing things legally will ever be cheaper than illegally Economies of scale.
serial_dev 3y ago
Is it really a problem in the practical, realistic, maybe a bit jaded way? The US (and basically every other country, too) always find a way to strike a deal with the most corrupted and backwards countries if needed. Then, when they plan a coup, the propaganda machine revs up, and everybody is suddenly worried about democracy, women's rights, gay rights, religious freedom, radical left or right in that country and that country only.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > everybody is suddenly worried about democracy, women's rights, gay rights, religious freedom Mexico's record on each of these fronts is, while imperfect, commendable.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
JustBreath 3y ago
Whereas, China of course has clean hands. Mostly due to the generous use of rubber gloves in their internment camps.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  Stares in confusion; because the US has a larger imprisoned population; and the commonplace of sexual assault joked about; and it's only recently been said it's illegal for guards to have sexual relationships with inmates.
  - JustBreath 3y ago
    Because the U.S. reports actual numbers and doesn't just vaporize its own people :)
esotericimpl 3y ago
[dead]

The problem with Mexico is that their government has deep ties with organized crime.

bradleyjg 3y ago

I think that’s backwards. The problem is the extremely powerful cartels, one consequence is the subverted governments.

galangalalgol 3y ago
I'd love to read a great book about that chicken or egg problem and what role the US leadership and populace has played in forming or altering it.
- xtracto 3y ago
  [Mexican living in Mexico here] There's a GREAT book about a lot of that, at least the Mexico side. It is called "Narcoland: Mexican Lords and Their-Godfathers" (original name "Los Señores del Narco) by Anabel Hernandez. She is a renowned journalist in Mexico who has lived threatened to death for several years, by several narcos and government officers. The book shows how the real "Lords" or "Godfathers" of Drug Trafficking are not some illiterate-uneducated kid from a small town in the middle of nowere in Mexico who becomes a "drug kingpin" with all connections and whatnot (CEOs and Cofounders who have struggled doing real word/legal relationships know that's a fairy tale), but rich people in Mexico, members of the elite class. That's why nothing real happens with cartels. The real bosses are people who have the real power, they control the government, control the narcos and control the money in Mexico. It's no conspiracy theory, everything is documented in that book. Here in Mexico society just "knows it". "Secreto a voces" they say it is, every state and city knows their narcos. To give you an example, in the "La Laguna" area of Durango, an ex-mayor, prominent businessman in the region and VERY rich guy named Carlos Herrera Araluce has been known to be a narco and in relationship with narcos. He was an elected officer (city mayor!!) with everybody knowing what he was doing. And the same is "known" in each state. You just have to ask some of the locals.
  - 29athrowaway 3y ago
    You don't seem to be familiar with the root cause. The revisionists rewriting history did they job very well.
    - xtracto 3y ago
      So? Feel free to educate me. This is HN and not reddit. We value meaningful contributions here. As it stands, your comment is just saying " I think you are wrong and have been brainwashed ". It doesnt add anything to the discussion. I'm not saying I have all truths, but I provided a book recommendation and gave my POV. I am positive you can do better.! I'll be authentically interested in learning your POV .
      - 29athrowaway 3y ago
        Read this most excellent comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37056453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37056453 The truth hidden from you your entire life in plain sight.
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  In reverse chronological order: 1940s: Mexico was the top producer of opiates during WW1 and WW2. After those conflicts ended, the opium planters turned to illegal trade. The opium poppy plant, the plant from which opium and related opiate drugs are produced, is not endemic to the Americas. 1882: The US Chinese exclusion act caused the expulsion of many Chinese, among them, opium poppy planters. Many of them relocated to to Mexico where they started planting opium again. 1860s: The Chinese immigrants involved in opium trade had opium dens in San Francisco and other places. They became addicted during an opium epidemic in China. 1839: The Chinese as a nation were against opium use, but the British forced them to legalize opium. All that is known as the Opium wars, which was the British weaponization of opium to extract wealth from China to make up for the lost money in the Americas. 1776: The British lost the American revolutionary war and started to accumulate a trade deficit with other countries, notably China. Conclusion: The East India Company was the first modern narco organization, Lord Palmerston is personally responsible for centuries of drug related violence. The guy was an educated person (in fact, 2x Prime Minister) and knew what he was doing all along. This comment will make everyone angry but it is the truth.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

I'm hoping that more investment and trade will make legal enterprise more profitable than the alternative.

lesuorac 3y ago
Well, I doubt doing things legally will ever be cheaper than illegally. I assume at some point the drug market will saturate and at that point why not use profits to expand into legal enterprises and push out any purely legal competitors?
- pc86 3y ago
  It doesn't need to be cheaper when a possible outcome of the alternative is a bullet. There are always people who turn to illegalities because they're forced to, and would gladly make less money in order to lessen their chance of imprisonment or worse. The easier you make it to make a living legally, the more people will turn away from crime and the stronger they'll oppose it in general.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    That only works though if you approach the problem from both angles. Often attempts to create legal alternatives are accompanied by decreases in enforcement action against the illegal options (sometimes intentionally, sometimes as a natural consequence of the fact that you can no longer treat all possession as illegal).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > I doubt doing things legally will ever be cheaper than illegally Economies of scale.

serial_dev 3y ago

Is it really a problem in the practical, realistic, maybe a bit jaded way? The US (and basically every other country, too) always find a way to strike a deal with the most corrupted and backwards countries if needed. Then, when they plan a coup, the propaganda machine revs up, and everybody is suddenly worried about democracy, women's rights, gay rights, religious freedom, radical left or right in that country and that country only.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> everybody is suddenly worried about democracy, women's rights, gay rights, religious freedom Mexico's record on each of these fronts is, while imperfect, commendable.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

JustBreath 3y ago

Whereas, China of course has clean hands. Mostly due to the generous use of rubber gloves in their internment camps.

smileysteve 3y ago
Stares in confusion; because the US has a larger imprisoned population; and the commonplace of sexual assault joked about; and it's only recently been said it's illegal for guards to have sexual relationships with inmates.
- JustBreath 3y ago
  Because the U.S. reports actual numbers and doesn't just vaporize its own people :)

esotericimpl 3y ago

[dead]