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> both turned out alright Ever been to Detroit?

by CPLX 3y ago

cjalmeida 3y ago
Detroit auto had their own undoing. Protecting them vs. allowing cheaper and better Japanese cars would be terrible for the average American. Germany auto handled global trade just fine.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  It’s a symptom of a national disease which has been terrible for half the country. Not allowing corporations to outsource all manufacturing would not have been terrible for the average American. That’s the argument of those who got extremely rich while selling off Americans globally dominant manufacturing position and abandoning large swathes of the country. There are more important things to a nation in the medium to long term than cheap trinkets and a small minority becoming wealthier.
yawgmoth 3y ago
Detroit is not a simple situation, many factors aside from NAFTA have resulted in its decline. To your point though, Michigan absolutely needs to continue diversifying its economy. It has prestigious education yet tremendous brain drain. Wages are low, yet some costs like auto insurance are among the most expensive in the nation.
rsynnott 3y ago
For a period, Britain tried to keep its car industry going through protectionism. This went out the window when they joined Europe, of course, but by then the car industry was in a very bad way anyway. Protectionism _alone_ won’t save an industry (possibly unless it is very absolutist North Korean style protectionism; “you _must_ buy British Leyland’s crap; it is literally the only option”.) Otherwise, protectionism might slow the decline a bit, but it won’t save an industry determined to destroy itself.
KoftaBob 3y ago
The Detroit Big 3 have themselves to blame for that, they chose to fixate on short term profit maximization at the expense of their cars being garbage in quality.
twelve40 3y ago
Detroit is one mono-industrial city out of 20,000 cities in the US. Did the country as a whole gain by trading with Japan?
- CPLX 3y ago
  It wasn't a rhetorial question. Have you gone there in the past 10 years, and driven through the bombed out neighborhoods, seen the aging factory complexes? It's very hard to do that and then think there was nothing we could have done differently and better with our post-1970's industrial and trade policies.
  - twelve40 3y ago
    you're cherry-picking one city, in one industry that fell behind, and using it as an argument against all international trade? or just some international trade? what is your point?
    - CPLX 3y ago
      One city? At minimum it’s a massive region of the country stretching from Allentown to Omaha and up to Rochester and down to Cincinnati. More accurately it’s basically every part of the country that’s not a city oriented towards finance or media. We’re talking millions upon millions of families shattered, communities left to die, whole areas racked by joblessness and addiction, and a society more unequal than ever. My argument would be that we shouldn’t have fucking done that. It’s possible to invest in and support domestic manufacturing. The Europeans aren’t this dumb they haven’t gone down this road.

> both turned out alright Ever been to Detroit?

by CPLX 3y ago

> both turned out alright Ever been to Detroit?

Detroit auto had their own undoing. Protecting them vs. allowing cheaper and better Japanese cars would be terrible for the average American. Germany auto handled global trade just fine.

edgyquant 3y ago
It’s a symptom of a national disease which has been terrible for half the country. Not allowing corporations to outsource all manufacturing would not have been terrible for the average American. That’s the argument of those who got extremely rich while selling off Americans globally dominant manufacturing position and abandoning large swathes of the country. There are more important things to a nation in the medium to long term than cheap trinkets and a small minority becoming wealthier.

yawgmoth 3y ago

Detroit is not a simple situation, many factors aside from NAFTA have resulted in its decline. To your point though, Michigan absolutely needs to continue diversifying its economy. It has prestigious education yet tremendous brain drain. Wages are low, yet some costs like auto insurance are among the most expensive in the nation.

rsynnott 3y ago

For a period, Britain tried to keep its car industry going through protectionism. This went out the window when they joined Europe, of course, but by then the car industry was in a very bad way anyway. Protectionism _alone_ won’t save an industry (possibly unless it is very absolutist North Korean style protectionism; “you _must_ buy British Leyland’s crap; it is literally the only option”.) Otherwise, protectionism might slow the decline a bit, but it won’t save an industry determined to destroy itself.

KoftaBob 3y ago

The Detroit Big 3 have themselves to blame for that, they chose to fixate on short term profit maximization at the expense of their cars being garbage in quality.

twelve40 3y ago

Detroit is one mono-industrial city out of 20,000 cities in the US. Did the country as a whole gain by trading with Japan?

CPLX 3y ago
It wasn't a rhetorial question. Have you gone there in the past 10 years, and driven through the bombed out neighborhoods, seen the aging factory complexes? It's very hard to do that and then think there was nothing we could have done differently and better with our post-1970's industrial and trade policies.
- twelve40 3y ago
  you're cherry-picking one city, in one industry that fell behind, and using it as an argument against all international trade? or just some international trade? what is your point?
  - CPLX 3y ago
    One city? At minimum it’s a massive region of the country stretching from Allentown to Omaha and up to Rochester and down to Cincinnati. More accurately it’s basically every part of the country that’s not a city oriented towards finance or media. We’re talking millions upon millions of families shattered, communities left to die, whole areas racked by joblessness and addiction, and a society more unequal than ever. My argument would be that we shouldn’t have fucking done that. It’s possible to invest in and support domestic manufacturing. The Europeans aren’t this dumb they haven’t gone down this road.