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Imho the android vs "true linux" debate must resolve soon or act as a millstone against our hopes for a free mobile device. The desired end state of the world

Imho the android vs "true linux" debate must resolve soon or act as a millstone against our hopes for a free mobile device. The desired end state of the world is one where is a well developed and mass-usable "third option" besides the duopoly. There should be a well identifiable app store where vital apps that one cannot not use (public sector, banking, medical etc) can be available, ideally as open source. There are clearly major obstacles on the hardware side due to the cartel nature of mass mobile production and distribution but having a diffuse vision on the software side doesn't help. The experience with linux desktop suggests that remaining niche and techie oriented is not fatal. The FOSS model has long term resilience. But the stakes are those days so high that a FOSS mobile in any shape or form that can break into the mass market would literally change the world.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>The desired end state of the world is one where is a well developed and mass-usable "third option" besides the duopoly. There should be a well identifiable app store where vital apps that one cannot not use (public sector, banking, medical etc) can be available, ideally as open source. It's much easier to regulate the heavily entrenched duopoly at this point, like how EU is trying to do, than somehow get a third player on the market, and convince people and devs to jump on board off Android and iOS. That's just not gonna happen. Even Microsoft was forced to throw in the towel and exit the mobile market and Windows Lumia phones were actually great, so there just is no space on the market for a third player that comes in so late in the game, to gain any sizable market share, that would convince users and devs to switch and allow for a sustainable business.
- nologic01 3y ago
  If something has to be regulated as public utility it might as well be a public utility. That this cornered "market" will never produce competition is clear enough. But there has never been a device so intimately coupled with the lives of so many people. Past approaches dont apply to new challenges. The question is how can the foss community use its limited resources to facilitate a "third way". There is some precedent in this respect from the fediverse/mastodon experience. The easy availability of a near substitute removes the TINA excuse from various stakeholders and policy makers. Its neither a concrete path nor a certainty. My comment was simply that people should not create further obstacles by pursuing self-indulgent agendas
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >The question is how can the foss community use its limited resources to facilitate a "third way". It can't, you and I already answered that it's impossible to enter the mobile market withtout any government intervention to break up the existing duopoly. Even the most hardcore Linux/FOSS fans don't daily drive FOSS Linux phones because they suck big time and have quirks impossible to live with, so mostly use iPhone or degoogled Androids, let alone have mainstream average users use them.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      > Even the most hardcore Linux/FOSS fans don't daily drive FOSS Linux phones because they suck big time and have quirks impossible to live with This is plain false. Sent from my Librem 5, which I daily drive. You can find more people like me in HN comments of other related submissions.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >This is plain false. Sent from my Librem 5, which I daily drive. But what does this prove? The market share isn't there for these devices. Even the vast majority of hardcore Linux fans daily drive iPhones or Androids and only use those toys for tinkering. You being a Librem 5 user doesn't move the needle on how niche these devices are in the wild.
        fsflover 3y ago
        You shifted goals. The share is low, but FOSS enthusiasts do use those phones as daily drivers and constantly improve them. This is exactly how many innovations start.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >but FOSS enthusiasts do use those phones as daily drivers and constantly improve them How many users other than you use FOSS phones? Is ist a sizable market or are we talking about a rounding error part of niche hobby? Just judging by the comments here you seem to be the only user on HN with one, and HN is already a super niche community of FOSS enthusiasts, but even here most use iOS devices because people like using stuff that already works with the mainstream apps.
- DropInIn 3y ago
  I think an issue is the presumption that it has to "compete"... It doesn't. A semi-niche device that is also a reliable "Don't need to upgrade hardware for a decade" option definitely has its place in the market, it just won't ever exceed 5% of the market... which would place it exactly where Linux desktop is. Why do we keep acting like we need more than that? A phone that won't be unusable due to vendor refusal to upgrade is a big thing for many users isn't it? Given widespread sentiments snd the fact most don't need to play high spec games, I could actually see it potentially exceeding Linux desktop share... but that presumes we don't see hardware fracture that destroys any market potential, which is what I've seen with the few projects for Linux phones - too many dogs eating each others lunches.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >A semi-niche device that is also a reliable "Don't need to upgrade hardware for a decade" option definitely has its place in the market, it just won't ever exceed 5% of the market... which would place it exactly where Linux desktop is. It won't even reach 5% of the market, when it will cost more than a mass produced cheapo Android device, be uglier, have less battery life, and take worse photos along with not being mainstream available in shops. FOSS phones already exist, and nobody is buying them other than Linux youtube reviewers (and they aren't daily driving them either), because they cost as much as half-decent phones, while being a lot worse and not supporting the major apps that people use to communicate with normies (what people mostly use their phones for). The amount of consumers who value a FOSS phone over everything else is a lot less than 5% of the market. It's an extremely niche market.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      Pinephones cost $150-200.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        And yet there's no market share for it.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > It's much easier to regulate the heavily entrenched duopoly at this point, like how EU is trying to do, than somehow get a third player on the market, and convince people and devs to jump on board off Android and iOS. That's just not gonna happen. There is a significant possibility to do this with Android because nearly the entire platform actually is open source. What you need is for someone to provide an alternate implementation for the Google-proprietary bits. Which isn't trivial -- it's a lot of work -- but it's at least feasible given some dedication. What you really need from laws is to get rid of the ones that prevent this from happening, e.g. anti-circumvention laws that prohibit a competitor from achieving compatibility by bypassing remote attestation. Because as long as those laws are still on the books, you can't build a compatible system, which is the first foothold you need in a market with a network effect.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    >e.g. anti-circumvention laws that prohibit a competitor from achieving compatibility by bypassing remote attestation I have a feeling you are misunderstanding remote attestation. Unless you are suggesting an Android competitor should harvest the keys from Play certified android phones and inject them into their own phones. Remote attestation does not affect the compatibility of software running on the system. It affects the ability of a third party server from being able to tell if your phone is running software the server trusts. If an app chooses to support only Play certified devices you will need to convince them that is worth supporting your phones too and you may need to provide your own remote attestation API. Perhaps support can be made easier if there was an intermediate API that wrapped a bunch of other remote attestation APIs and made it easier for apps to decide which they trust as opposed to needing to spend extra engineering time in adding support.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      We should have laws that ban mandatory (i.e. something gets disabled if not present) remote attestation and secure boot for consumer and most business devices and software, period. The only place where RA should be allowed is purely business oriented embedded devices like bank ATMs that actually need the security guarantees.
tannhaeuser 3y ago
[flagged]
woolion 3y ago
Android is Linux in a lot of ways that don't really matter (it uses part of the same software stack!) and it's definitely not Linux in all the ways that do matter: it's a tool by surveillance capitalism and state surveillance (more often than not illegal). It's a device made for consumers and not hackers, and extract as much value as possible from them, correlating purchases with location data etc. The PinePhone is a Linux phone. It's a really lovable device, even if it still has a lot of big flaws.
- kaba0 3y ago
  > it's a tool by surveillance capitalism and state surveillance That’s just the additional userspace bits installed by vendors. The core itself, e.g. GrapheneOS is orders of magnitude more secure than any “traditional Linux” desktop (which is a shame that security is so low priority), and has zero privacy violations, even if you do install play services it will be sandboxed properly. PinePhone is a Linux toy (I have one), it is absolutely unusable as a daily driver and this stance is what puts back linux adoption by decades. Let’s build on Android instead of starting from scratch.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    > Let’s build on Android instead of starting from scratch. Wake me up when any phone like this will run mainline Linux.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>The desired end state of the world is one where is a well developed and mass-usable "third option" besides the duopoly. There should be a well identifiable app store where vital apps that one cannot not use (public sector, banking, medical etc) can be available, ideally as open source. It's much easier to regulate the heavily entrenched duopoly at this point, like how EU is trying to do, than somehow get a third player on the market, and convince people and devs to jump on board off Android and iOS. That's just not gonna happen. Even Microsoft was forced to throw in the towel and exit the mobile market and Windows Lumia phones were actually great, so there just is no space on the market for a third player that comes in so late in the game, to gain any sizable market share, that would convince users and devs to switch and allow for a sustainable business.

nologic01 3y ago
If something has to be regulated as public utility it might as well be a public utility. That this cornered "market" will never produce competition is clear enough. But there has never been a device so intimately coupled with the lives of so many people. Past approaches dont apply to new challenges. The question is how can the foss community use its limited resources to facilitate a "third way". There is some precedent in this respect from the fediverse/mastodon experience. The easy availability of a near substitute removes the TINA excuse from various stakeholders and policy makers. Its neither a concrete path nor a certainty. My comment was simply that people should not create further obstacles by pursuing self-indulgent agendas
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >The question is how can the foss community use its limited resources to facilitate a "third way". It can't, you and I already answered that it's impossible to enter the mobile market withtout any government intervention to break up the existing duopoly. Even the most hardcore Linux/FOSS fans don't daily drive FOSS Linux phones because they suck big time and have quirks impossible to live with, so mostly use iPhone or degoogled Androids, let alone have mainstream average users use them.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    > Even the most hardcore Linux/FOSS fans don't daily drive FOSS Linux phones because they suck big time and have quirks impossible to live with This is plain false. Sent from my Librem 5, which I daily drive. You can find more people like me in HN comments of other related submissions.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >This is plain false. Sent from my Librem 5, which I daily drive. But what does this prove? The market share isn't there for these devices. Even the vast majority of hardcore Linux fans daily drive iPhones or Androids and only use those toys for tinkering. You being a Librem 5 user doesn't move the needle on how niche these devices are in the wild.
      - fsflover 3y ago
        You shifted goals. The share is low, but FOSS enthusiasts do use those phones as daily drivers and constantly improve them. This is exactly how many innovations start.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >but FOSS enthusiasts do use those phones as daily drivers and constantly improve them How many users other than you use FOSS phones? Is ist a sizable market or are we talking about a rounding error part of niche hobby? Just judging by the comments here you seem to be the only user on HN with one, and HN is already a super niche community of FOSS enthusiasts, but even here most use iOS devices because people like using stuff that already works with the mainstream apps.
DropInIn 3y ago
I think an issue is the presumption that it has to "compete"... It doesn't. A semi-niche device that is also a reliable "Don't need to upgrade hardware for a decade" option definitely has its place in the market, it just won't ever exceed 5% of the market... which would place it exactly where Linux desktop is. Why do we keep acting like we need more than that? A phone that won't be unusable due to vendor refusal to upgrade is a big thing for many users isn't it? Given widespread sentiments snd the fact most don't need to play high spec games, I could actually see it potentially exceeding Linux desktop share... but that presumes we don't see hardware fracture that destroys any market potential, which is what I've seen with the few projects for Linux phones - too many dogs eating each others lunches.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >A semi-niche device that is also a reliable "Don't need to upgrade hardware for a decade" option definitely has its place in the market, it just won't ever exceed 5% of the market... which would place it exactly where Linux desktop is. It won't even reach 5% of the market, when it will cost more than a mass produced cheapo Android device, be uglier, have less battery life, and take worse photos along with not being mainstream available in shops. FOSS phones already exist, and nobody is buying them other than Linux youtube reviewers (and they aren't daily driving them either), because they cost as much as half-decent phones, while being a lot worse and not supporting the major apps that people use to communicate with normies (what people mostly use their phones for). The amount of consumers who value a FOSS phone over everything else is a lot less than 5% of the market. It's an extremely niche market.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    Pinephones cost $150-200.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      And yet there's no market share for it.
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> It's much easier to regulate the heavily entrenched duopoly at this point, like how EU is trying to do, than somehow get a third player on the market, and convince people and devs to jump on board off Android and iOS. That's just not gonna happen. There is a significant possibility to do this with Android because nearly the entire platform actually is open source. What you need is for someone to provide an alternate implementation for the Google-proprietary bits. Which isn't trivial -- it's a lot of work -- but it's at least feasible given some dedication. What you really need from laws is to get rid of the ones that prevent this from happening, e.g. anti-circumvention laws that prohibit a competitor from achieving compatibility by bypassing remote attestation. Because as long as those laws are still on the books, you can't build a compatible system, which is the first foothold you need in a market with a network effect.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  >e.g. anti-circumvention laws that prohibit a competitor from achieving compatibility by bypassing remote attestation I have a feeling you are misunderstanding remote attestation. Unless you are suggesting an Android competitor should harvest the keys from Play certified android phones and inject them into their own phones. Remote attestation does not affect the compatibility of software running on the system. It affects the ability of a third party server from being able to tell if your phone is running software the server trusts. If an app chooses to support only Play certified devices you will need to convince them that is worth supporting your phones too and you may need to provide your own remote attestation API. Perhaps support can be made easier if there was an intermediate API that wrapped a bunch of other remote attestation APIs and made it easier for apps to decide which they trust as opposed to needing to spend extra engineering time in adding support.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    We should have laws that ban mandatory (i.e. something gets disabled if not present) remote attestation and secure boot for consumer and most business devices and software, period. The only place where RA should be allowed is purely business oriented embedded devices like bank ATMs that actually need the security guarantees.

tannhaeuser 3y ago

[flagged]

woolion 3y ago

Android is Linux in a lot of ways that don't really matter (it uses part of the same software stack!) and it's definitely not Linux in all the ways that do matter: it's a tool by surveillance capitalism and state surveillance (more often than not illegal). It's a device made for consumers and not hackers, and extract as much value as possible from them, correlating purchases with location data etc. The PinePhone is a Linux phone. It's a really lovable device, even if it still has a lot of big flaws.

kaba0 3y ago
> it's a tool by surveillance capitalism and state surveillance That’s just the additional userspace bits installed by vendors. The core itself, e.g. GrapheneOS is orders of magnitude more secure than any “traditional Linux” desktop (which is a shame that security is so low priority), and has zero privacy violations, even if you do install play services it will be sandboxed properly. PinePhone is a Linux toy (I have one), it is absolutely unusable as a daily driver and this stance is what puts back linux adoption by decades. Let’s build on Android instead of starting from scratch.
- fsflover 3y ago
  > Let’s build on Android instead of starting from scratch. Wake me up when any phone like this will run mainline Linux.