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8. Your legal threat is asinine in any event, so I will go ahead and name some names. Ashok Elluswamy, the current director of Autopilot software, is guilty of

by Veserv 3y ago

8. Your legal threat is asinine in any event, so I will go ahead and name some names. Ashok Elluswamy, the current director of Autopilot software, is guilty of manslaughter. In sworn testimony, [1] Ashok Elluswamy on page 70 declared that he was specifically involved in staging the Autopilot demo video to misrepresent the capabilities of Autopilot to customers. This has been relied on by customers as a faithful representation of its abilities and has lead to multiple avoidable deaths. In his sworn testimony he repeatedly declared he had no knowledge of human factors, human factors engineers, or basic safety design concepts. On page 36, he explicitly abdicates responsibility for overall software safety by declaring that he is just a "software engineer" despite being the director of Autopilot software. He is grossly unqualified, made no efforts to retain or listen to safety expertise demanded of his job, and has deliberately deployed incomplete software with known critical defects to the public. Elon Musk is personally guilty of manslaughter. For the same reasons as above. In addition, Elon Musk was publicly informed that Tesla ADAS would not stop for a school bus with the stop arm extended, as is required by law, in 2022-10 [2]. He was separately informed again in 2023-02 [3]. He took no action to correct the behavior or to recall the Tesla ADAS until the behavior is corrected. On 2023-03-15, a Tesla with ADAS engaged hit a minor exiting a school bus with the stop arm extended [4] causing serious injuries. This is recorded in the NHTSA SGO database [5] as Report ID 13781-5100 which definitively confirms that the ADAS system was operating at the time of collision. Elon Musk was informed that the Tesla ADAS would engage in grossly illegal and reckless behavior and then it did that behavior and caused serious personal harm to a member of the public. He has been separately informed of numerous other life-threatening safety defects and exactly zero corrective action has been taken to mitigate them. 9. Safety critical systems do fail. This is despite great efforts and care taken to rigorously tackle safety problems, the decades of experience in developing high quality safety protocols, and a solemn regard for the challenging task of keeping humans safe. Tesla throws all of this away and tackles problems with a callous disregard for human life and a "ends justify the means" philosophy that is incompatible with safety. Instead of transparency, they deliberately obfuscate their raw data, allow no independent evaluation or auditing, and then publish bogus safety reports like this [6] which include no actionable data at all that are meant to mislead customers into trusting unsafe systems with their lives. They do not even include the count of crashes used or the number of miles driven. They publish a single ratio and call that a safety report. In contrast, Waymo published this safety report [7] at 1,000,000 driverless miles. It exhaustively lists, describes, and analyzes every crash that occurred. It discusses methodology, comparisons, confounding factors, and all the other basic things expected from a real safety report. Waymo is registered with the CA DMV to do driverless testing [8] and reports all vehicles, mileage, and contact events to the DMV. Tesla is not registered to do driverless testing and has not done any safety driver testing despite claiming their customers are "safety drivers" doing testing. They deliberately misclassify their Full Self Driving, L4, Beta program as a L2 Beta program to avoid mandatory reporting requirements that would reflect badly on them. 10. You can present exactly zero audited evidence that Tesla ADAS saves lives. The only support for that position is the unaudited Tesla marketing statements I pointed to above drawn from private data that Tesla does not allow anyone access to. Unaudited reports by the manufacturer are literally worthless. They have the largest possible conflict of interest to lie or misrepresent the data. All publicly available evidence points to the opposite with Tesla reporting to NHTSA over 700 accidents with no known survivors attributable to FSD in the SGO database over an estimated 350M miles. That is over 150x more deadly than the average human driver. 11. I do not want perfection. I want proven, audited safety statistics, robust safety processes that minimize avoidable deaths and risks and ratchet toward improved safety, and exhaustive safety testing to avoid safety regressions. Tesla provides exactly none of these. I would also like the people making safety-critical systems to have a respect for the humans lives they are putting at risk. Tesla and Elon Musk do not have that either. In conclusion, your opinions are wrong in every conceivable way. Literally every single statement derived from your beliefs is harmful and detrimental to safety design and has been repudiated by decades of work by actual safety experts making products fit to depend on. And your argumentation style is anti-consumer and anti-social as you seek to burden others with proving your unsupported positions wrong to a ridiculous standard of proof that you yourself are unwilling to attempt and then threaten them in an attempt to cow them. [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23574198-elluswamy-deposition-transcript https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23574198-elluswamy-d... [2] https://dawnproject.com/tests-reveal-that-tesla-fsd-will-drive-around-stopped-school-buses/ https://dawnproject.com/tests-reveal-that-tesla-fsd-will-dri... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZiSZbWIrzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZiSZbWIrzA [4] https://www.rflaw.net/howard-gene-yee-hits-10th-grader-halifax-county-march-15-2023/ https://www.rflaw.net/howard-gene-yee-hits-10th-grader-halif... [5] https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_In... [6] https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport [7] https://storage.googleapis.com/waymo-uploads/files/documents/safety/Safety%20Performance%20of%20Waymo%20RO%20at%201M%20miles.pdf https://storage.googleapis.com/waymo-uploads/files/documents... [8] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/autonomous-vehicles/testing-autonomous-vehicles-without-a-driver/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/auto...

daly 3y ago
To be clear I didn't "threaten" anything. I intended no threats. Calm down. Are you confusing ADAS with Full Self Driving? They are nowhere the same. An ADAS system, like my cruise control, won't stop for a school bus, for example. Do you insist that my cruise control shut off if I look away from the road? It currently doesn't. I rented a Tesla 3 for a week. The ADAS system worked as expected. One instance does not a pattern make but I was quite impressed. I have a lifelong involvement with vision and robotics and understand how difficult it is to "follow the lane" in all kinds of lighting, weather, and traffic. In some driving conditions even people can't follow the lane. As for engineering safety systems we had many debates about protecting human/robot interactions. This is the reason you see fences around robots in factories. Opening the gate will shut down the robot and that will shut down the production line. Workers have still been killed by being inside the fence despite all safety interlocks and worker training. You claim to want "a ratchet toward improved safety". It seems to me that these early attempts at driver awareness IS a ratchet toward improved safety as they did not exist before. Ratchet safety requires failures and corrections. You claim that "Tesla provides none of these" but seem to ignore the new, previously non-existing, attempts at driver awareness. Teslas are reasonably safe cars. To quote Euro NCAP safety rating results: Following this test, Model S again received a 5-star safety rating and the highest Overall Score among any vehicle tested in this protocol. It also performed exceptionally well in more detailed tests across the board: 98% in Safety Assist. 91% in Child Occupant Protection. Sandy Monro, an auto expert, did a review of the safety design of Tesla. Monro pointed out the engineering features that preserved passenger compartment integrity in a collision. The Tesla I rented had steering wheel airbags, side-curtain airbags, and driver/passenger separation airbags. My current car only has steering wheel / passenger airbags. Even if you insist on confusing ADAS with FSD the driver is "pilot in command" and fully responsible for everything all the time. If there is an accident it is the drivers fault. Until there are no drivers that will always be true. I am unaware of Tesla claiming that you don't need a driver. Having worked on an ambulance corp for 5 years I can state from personal experience that people die in car accidents. That will continue as long as there are cars. You seem so passionate about this topic with a particular focus only on Tesla. That strikes me as odd. There are many car companies with ADAS systems and ADAS failures, most of which don't include an attempt at driver awareness. Where is your review of other systems? Comma, for example, at the Comma Con 2 conference explicitly said they are NOT liable for anything. If ADAS/FSD safety is your issue please post safety issues of non-Tesla cars. There are 91 car companies in China with ADAS and most of the worldwide majors have ADAS. So lets have a more general, non-Tesla safety discussion.

by Veserv 3y ago

daly 3y ago

To be clear I didn't "threaten" anything. I intended no threats. Calm down. Are you confusing ADAS with Full Self Driving? They are nowhere the same. An ADAS system, like my cruise control, won't stop for a school bus, for example. Do you insist that my cruise control shut off if I look away from the road? It currently doesn't. I rented a Tesla 3 for a week. The ADAS system worked as expected. One instance does not a pattern make but I was quite impressed. I have a lifelong involvement with vision and robotics and understand how difficult it is to "follow the lane" in all kinds of lighting, weather, and traffic. In some driving conditions even people can't follow the lane. As for engineering safety systems we had many debates about protecting human/robot interactions. This is the reason you see fences around robots in factories. Opening the gate will shut down the robot and that will shut down the production line. Workers have still been killed by being inside the fence despite all safety interlocks and worker training. You claim to want "a ratchet toward improved safety". It seems to me that these early attempts at driver awareness IS a ratchet toward improved safety as they did not exist before. Ratchet safety requires failures and corrections. You claim that "Tesla provides none of these" but seem to ignore the new, previously non-existing, attempts at driver awareness. Teslas are reasonably safe cars. To quote Euro NCAP safety rating results: Following this test, Model S again received a 5-star safety rating and the highest Overall Score among any vehicle tested in this protocol. It also performed exceptionally well in more detailed tests across the board: 98% in Safety Assist. 91% in Child Occupant Protection. Sandy Monro, an auto expert, did a review of the safety design of Tesla. Monro pointed out the engineering features that preserved passenger compartment integrity in a collision. The Tesla I rented had steering wheel airbags, side-curtain airbags, and driver/passenger separation airbags. My current car only has steering wheel / passenger airbags. Even if you insist on confusing ADAS with FSD the driver is "pilot in command" and fully responsible for everything all the time. If there is an accident it is the drivers fault. Until there are no drivers that will always be true. I am unaware of Tesla claiming that you don't need a driver. Having worked on an ambulance corp for 5 years I can state from personal experience that people die in car accidents. That will continue as long as there are cars. You seem so passionate about this topic with a particular focus only on Tesla. That strikes me as odd. There are many car companies with ADAS systems and ADAS failures, most of which don't include an attempt at driver awareness. Where is your review of other systems? Comma, for example, at the Comma Con 2 conference explicitly said they are NOT liable for anything. If ADAS/FSD safety is your issue please post safety issues of non-Tesla cars. There are 91 car companies in China with ADAS and most of the worldwide majors have ADAS. So lets have a more general, non-Tesla safety discussion.