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We have a word for US movies and books portraying Russia: "klukva" (cranberry). Because in every US made movie and US written book amount of lies and confabulat

We have a word for US movies and books portraying Russia: "klukva" (cranberry). Because in every US made movie and US written book amount of lies and confabulations about Russian history and Russian culture is so high, that it deserves a special word. E.g. I was reading a book recently by John le Carré and had to stop after reading about 50 pages. I simply couldn't continue. E.g. there's a scene where Russian traitor comes to "Chechen" restaurant in the center of St. Petersburg, and orders only a glass of vodka. Firstly, there are no Chechen restaurants. Especially in the center of St. Petersburg. I don't know why, but anybody living here in Russia wouldn't be able to find any Chechen restaurant in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Russian, Ukranian, Thai, Chinese, Vietnamese, whatever, but not Chechen. Secondly, not all Russians drink vodka, not even majority. Vodka is considered a drink for poor and alcoholics. I don't think it's true, I think that vodka is superior to many other spirits, but that's the typical Russian stereotype. Thirdly, Russian people never order just vodka. We always drink vodka together with substantial food. Not only it is considered a very poor taste to drink vodka without food, it's also absolutely not enjoyable to consume it this way. And on the cover of the book it was written that the story is very close to the truth, which makes Le Carré special. OMG. So, this whole story about a shrine in a plane is bullshit.

woodruffw 3y ago
I don't doubt for a minute that Western media is filled with all kinds of ridiculous apocrypha about Russia. At the same time, I've never encountered this kind of ridiculous sensitivity about a country's perception before. Do you think every American drives a pickup truck and owns 12 guns? You probably don't, because you're not a fool; similarly, most Americans don't think that Russians live their lives swizzling vodka in Chechen restaurants. Le Carré is a novelist, not a biographer.
- anticodon 3y ago
  > I don't doubt for a minute that Western media is filled with all kinds of ridiculous apocrypha about Russia. At the same time, I've never encountered this kind of ridiculous sensitivity about a country's perception before. You won't find many Russian authors vilifying USA habits and culture. Not among popular ones, for sure. Nor the Russian movies. That makes a difference. When there's a Russian in the US movie, I mentally prepare myself for a cringe. Usually, it would be a unreasonably aggressive person, killer or terrorist, or just a bad person. Drinking vodka like water, beating women, etc, etc. You'd have hard time finding anything resembling this in Russian books or movies about USA.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- foverzar 3y ago
  > this kind of ridiculous sensitivity about a country's perception before What's up with these emotive labels? Lots of people (myself included) enjoy klyukva - it's an awesome source of hilariously absurd content. But you'd be surprised how often it actually leaks into supposedly serious reasoning, constantly making you question exactly how far (not even "if") the person you are talking to is detached from objective reality and what are their assumptions. There are quite a few examples of this even in this comment section. Obviously this is not really unique - likely an extremely common view of foreign cultures people aren't really exposed to. The example with Americans isn't representative though since we are all exposed to this particular culture.
  - bcatanzaro 3y ago
    I'd say the anecdote about Sarah Palin saying "I can see Russia from my house" is related. Plenty of Americans think she actually said it even though it came from SNL. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sarah-palin-russia-house/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sarah-palin-russia-house/
  - Rapzid 3y ago
    > But you'd be surprised how often it actually leaks into supposedly serious reasoning I live in Texas and let me tell you I believe I know exactly how you feel. A lot of people's entire perception of this state is based on agitprop headlines they consume. To the point where the other day, on HN, everyone is an expert on Texas energy production and policy desperate to dunk on the state based on a headline about a temporary spike in wholesale energy prices.
    - nocoiner 3y ago
      But if I live here, then I automatically hold a “Texas energy production expert” card, right? Actually, surely it’d be a badge. Anyway, I automatically get the badge… right, pardner?
      - Rapzid 3y ago
        Yes, it's a badge. My point isn't about being an expert or not, it's about the ability to have honest, reasoned, and researched conversations.
HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
> We always drink vodka together with substantial food It's funny that you say this because one of the strongest memories I have of a former Russian co-worker was him telling me that "when you drink vodka, the food must be right there. You drink, then you eat right away. That is the only way to do it." And I tend to remember it as I'm taking a shot of vodka and it always makes me smile. Alex, I'll have a drink for you tonight :-)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
areyousure 3y ago
> Firstly, there are no Chechen restaurants. Especially in the center of St. Petersburg. I don't know why, but anybody living here in Russia wouldn't be able to find any Chechen restaurant in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Russian, Ukranian [sic], Thai, Chinese, Vietnamese, whatever, but not Chechen. In case anyone was curious, there is a halal cafe called "Брат" ("Brat", meaning brother) in central Saint Petersburg which serves Chechen food and is advertised occasionally as a "Chechen restaurant". You can read the reviews on Google yourself: https://goo.gl/maps/wLi8qCoP8MaQy9Vv9 https://goo.gl/maps/wLi8qCoP8MaQy9Vv9 "Вкусно, как в Грозном!" ("Tasty, like in Grozny!") Or on Yandex: https://yandex.ru/maps/org/brat/1450497326/reviews/?ll=30.381518%2C59.937149&z=14 https://yandex.ru/maps/org/brat/1450497326/reviews/?ll=30.38... "Нам его посоветовали как «чеченское кафе»." ("It was recommended to us as a "Chechen cafe".") (There is also another cafe called MaggroZ.)
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  That's great what someone treats the cafe as a restaurant. It doesn't make it a restaurant, though. And what about vodka in Chechen restaurant?
  - saiya-jin 3y ago
    I've had beers and wine in western restaurants representing cuisine of muslim-majority countries, that's nothing special. Its up to owner to decide whether they want to cater to wider local audience or be strict. For example beers attract a lot of people, we like to pop a small one with lunch as digestive. I am not saying what is or isn't possible in russia or how chechens are viewed by russian populations, but the whole concept is more than fine elsewhere.
cafard 3y ago
By the way, John Le Carré was British, not American. No doubt there are dumb passages in American novels about Russia, but I don't see why we should take the blame for John Le Carré.
iseletsk 3y ago
Of course there chechen restaurants in St. Petersburg: https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD+%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B1 https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%... Even more so in Moscow. Second surprise for you - there are plenty of russians who are poor and alcoholic. There are plenty of russians that drink vodka. And while it is a poor taste, there are quite a few people in russia with very poor taste.
- foverzar 3y ago
  > Of course there chechen restaurants in St. Petersburg Even your link proves that it's essentially not the case. Google finds the word "chechen" only twice and then just makes a fair guess that you were actually looking for Caucasus cuisine. Same for Moscow. > Second surprise for you - there are plenty of russians who are poor and alcoholic. There are plenty of russians that drink vodka. As is everyone else. What's the "surprise"? Parent wasn't arguing that there are NO people who are alcoholic, poor, or simply drink vokda, were they? They were moking a stereotype.
sorokod 3y ago
In what time period does the plot occur?
baybal2 3y ago
1. In much of the country, people drink vodka like people drink Coke, not oligarchs in Moscow though. 2. Much of restaurants in Russia are indeed Chechen owned. Great many of Japanese, Chinese, Korean restaurants, and street food in general in Russia have Chechen owners. That the real Russia.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rootsudo 3y ago
This is all interesting - would you be willing to go on more about Russian vernacular/stereotypes? My background is solely USA and I find it really impossible to learn these things - online. I do think the easiest way would be to go out and make Russian friends and such but - ideally that isn't something I want to really do. I guess I could try to find online communities of Russians, but even then - it is conflating a country to a language (which I think is sort of uniformly spoken in several countries?)

woodruffw 3y ago

I don't doubt for a minute that Western media is filled with all kinds of ridiculous apocrypha about Russia. At the same time, I've never encountered this kind of ridiculous sensitivity about a country's perception before. Do you think every American drives a pickup truck and owns 12 guns? You probably don't, because you're not a fool; similarly, most Americans don't think that Russians live their lives swizzling vodka in Chechen restaurants. Le Carré is a novelist, not a biographer.

anticodon 3y ago
> I don't doubt for a minute that Western media is filled with all kinds of ridiculous apocrypha about Russia. At the same time, I've never encountered this kind of ridiculous sensitivity about a country's perception before. You won't find many Russian authors vilifying USA habits and culture. Not among popular ones, for sure. Nor the Russian movies. That makes a difference. When there's a Russian in the US movie, I mentally prepare myself for a cringe. Usually, it would be a unreasonably aggressive person, killer or terrorist, or just a bad person. Drinking vodka like water, beating women, etc, etc. You'd have hard time finding anything resembling this in Russian books or movies about USA.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
foverzar 3y ago
> this kind of ridiculous sensitivity about a country's perception before What's up with these emotive labels? Lots of people (myself included) enjoy klyukva - it's an awesome source of hilariously absurd content. But you'd be surprised how often it actually leaks into supposedly serious reasoning, constantly making you question exactly how far (not even "if") the person you are talking to is detached from objective reality and what are their assumptions. There are quite a few examples of this even in this comment section. Obviously this is not really unique - likely an extremely common view of foreign cultures people aren't really exposed to. The example with Americans isn't representative though since we are all exposed to this particular culture.
- bcatanzaro 3y ago
  I'd say the anecdote about Sarah Palin saying "I can see Russia from my house" is related. Plenty of Americans think she actually said it even though it came from SNL. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sarah-palin-russia-house/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sarah-palin-russia-house/
- Rapzid 3y ago
  > But you'd be surprised how often it actually leaks into supposedly serious reasoning I live in Texas and let me tell you I believe I know exactly how you feel. A lot of people's entire perception of this state is based on agitprop headlines they consume. To the point where the other day, on HN, everyone is an expert on Texas energy production and policy desperate to dunk on the state based on a headline about a temporary spike in wholesale energy prices.
  - nocoiner 3y ago
    But if I live here, then I automatically hold a “Texas energy production expert” card, right? Actually, surely it’d be a badge. Anyway, I automatically get the badge… right, pardner?
    - Rapzid 3y ago
      Yes, it's a badge. My point isn't about being an expert or not, it's about the ability to have honest, reasoned, and researched conversations.

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago

> We always drink vodka together with substantial food It's funny that you say this because one of the strongest memories I have of a former Russian co-worker was him telling me that "when you drink vodka, the food must be right there. You drink, then you eat right away. That is the only way to do it." And I tend to remember it as I'm taking a shot of vodka and it always makes me smile. Alex, I'll have a drink for you tonight :-)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

areyousure 3y ago

> Firstly, there are no Chechen restaurants. Especially in the center of St. Petersburg. I don't know why, but anybody living here in Russia wouldn't be able to find any Chechen restaurant in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Russian, Ukranian [sic], Thai, Chinese, Vietnamese, whatever, but not Chechen. In case anyone was curious, there is a halal cafe called "Брат" ("Brat", meaning brother) in central Saint Petersburg which serves Chechen food and is advertised occasionally as a "Chechen restaurant". You can read the reviews on Google yourself: https://goo.gl/maps/wLi8qCoP8MaQy9Vv9 https://goo.gl/maps/wLi8qCoP8MaQy9Vv9 "Вкусно, как в Грозном!" ("Tasty, like in Grozny!") Or on Yandex: https://yandex.ru/maps/org/brat/1450497326/reviews/?ll=30.381518%2C59.937149&z=14 https://yandex.ru/maps/org/brat/1450497326/reviews/?ll=30.38... "Нам его посоветовали как «чеченское кафе»." ("It was recommended to us as a "Chechen cafe".") (There is also another cafe called MaggroZ.)

justsomehnguy 3y ago
That's great what someone treats the cafe as a restaurant. It doesn't make it a restaurant, though. And what about vodka in Chechen restaurant?
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  I've had beers and wine in western restaurants representing cuisine of muslim-majority countries, that's nothing special. Its up to owner to decide whether they want to cater to wider local audience or be strict. For example beers attract a lot of people, we like to pop a small one with lunch as digestive. I am not saying what is or isn't possible in russia or how chechens are viewed by russian populations, but the whole concept is more than fine elsewhere.

cafard 3y ago

By the way, John Le Carré was British, not American. No doubt there are dumb passages in American novels about Russia, but I don't see why we should take the blame for John Le Carré.

iseletsk 3y ago

Of course there chechen restaurants in St. Petersburg: https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD+%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B1 https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%... Even more so in Moscow. Second surprise for you - there are plenty of russians who are poor and alcoholic. There are plenty of russians that drink vodka. And while it is a poor taste, there are quite a few people in russia with very poor taste.

foverzar 3y ago
> Of course there chechen restaurants in St. Petersburg Even your link proves that it's essentially not the case. Google finds the word "chechen" only twice and then just makes a fair guess that you were actually looking for Caucasus cuisine. Same for Moscow. > Second surprise for you - there are plenty of russians who are poor and alcoholic. There are plenty of russians that drink vodka. As is everyone else. What's the "surprise"? Parent wasn't arguing that there are NO people who are alcoholic, poor, or simply drink vokda, were they? They were moking a stereotype.

sorokod 3y ago

In what time period does the plot occur?

baybal2 3y ago

1. In much of the country, people drink vodka like people drink Coke, not oligarchs in Moscow though. 2. Much of restaurants in Russia are indeed Chechen owned. Great many of Japanese, Chinese, Korean restaurants, and street food in general in Russia have Chechen owners. That the real Russia.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rootsudo 3y ago

This is all interesting - would you be willing to go on more about Russian vernacular/stereotypes? My background is solely USA and I find it really impossible to learn these things - online. I do think the easiest way would be to go out and make Russian friends and such but - ideally that isn't something I want to really do. I guess I could try to find online communities of Russians, but even then - it is conflating a country to a language (which I think is sort of uniformly spoken in several countries?)