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> I think the more apples-to-apples comparison here would be a train without breaks, wouldn't it be No. Not really. Russia has the means to produce brakes for

> I think the more apples-to-apples comparison here would be a train without breaks, wouldn't it be No. Not really. Russia has the means to produce brakes for their trains. They do not have the means to do the same for these airplanes. So the reality on the ground is that the trains have brakes while the airplanes don't (or they have breaks but with rapidly aging out of compliance parts.)

woodruffw 3y ago
> No. Not really. Russia has the means to produce brakes for their trains. They do not have the means to do the same for these airplanes. I meant in terms of riders' perceptions of safety, not industrial capacity. That being said, it astounds me that Russia can't fabricate replacement breaks here: we're talking about a country with some of the best metallurgists in the world and a domestic aerospace industry; what gives?
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  No one ever said that they can't. But going from zero to being able to buy replacement Boeing (or whoever the OEM was) brakes off the shelf is a process of many months (in the optimistic case) or years, not weeks. After all, even the simplest analysis for an aviation supplier has to be "can we make enough money selling these replacement brakes to cover the cost of setting up a manufacturing, quality control, and distribution system?"
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    This would have made sense 12 months or even 9 months ago, but we're now 18 months into a war that Russia's government had otherwise been preparing domestically for. Again: what gives?
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      They hadn't been preparing for it to last 18 months, and part of their preparation had been oriented at influence operations to preemptivelt disrupt Western unity and political response when the war qas launched. While I won't say that categorically failed (it still has tangible effects), it has been far from a complete success.
    - jamiek88 3y ago
      It’s an incompetent oligarchy where competence is dangerous and gets you sidelined. Rotten from the top down.
      - foverzar 3y ago
        And here come 2 minutes hate people
        kspacewalk2 3y ago
        Where's the hate?
        foverzar 3y ago
        Are you serious? It's an obvious slander bs. Btw, it's a reference to Orwell.
        kspacewalk2 3y ago
        Yes, obviously it's a reference to Orwell. However, I see no hate. Criticism of fascist invasions and their perpetrators is not hate.
        foverzar 3y ago
        Firstly, if you understood that this is a reference, why are you trying to interpret separate words literally? And secondly, there was no constructive criticism or even any mention of "fascism" or "invasion". Following your own logic, I could - just for the sake of example, mind you - claim that you come from hellish slave-hole where people eat babies and then justify it with actually literally the same slogan as you did. Would that be as fucking stupid? Yes, it would. Now, should I expect you to accuse me of whataboutism for trying to build a consistent logical framework?
    - foverzar 3y ago
      > 18 months into a war that Russia's government had otherwise been preparing domestically for Eh, I think we all saw how "prepared" Russia was. In any case, I think the following factors are definitive here: - No one really considers the current situation as "permanent". The war will be over at some point and life will go on. So investing in manufacturing of those specific parts might prove a waste. - This is specifically an issue with parts for foreign aircrafts. Is it even worth producing parts for foreign crafts? - There are ways to evade sanctions and smuggle parts and right now, to some degree - Russia passed a legislation allowing 3rd-party parts and signed a contract with Iran on airplane maintainance and parts supply - Iran already has an expertise and industrial capacity operating in somewhat similar conditions. Iran also has more experience smuggling. Obviously, that work had started many months ago, not just now.
    - ufmace 3y ago
      It's pretty clear that the war was planned under the assumption that they'd just march straight into Kiev, maybe shoot a few hardcases, scare the rest with how awesome they were, and basically be welcomed as liberators by most. When that failed to work, they didn't seem to have any idea what to actually do next, besides claiming the attack on Kiev was always supposed to have been a feint and the real goal was always to grab a few chunks of eastern Ukraine.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    Also, Russian manufacturing may have other urgent priorities right now. Wars (fought outside of the homeland) may be good for employment and industrialization broadly, but they often are the opposite for application of industry to civilian ends.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > I meant in terms of riders' perceptions of safety But that is what I am saying. The apples-to-apples comparision is “airplane with questionable/no brakes” vs “train with brakes”. There the “apple” is “as the thing is right now when you want to travel”. The proposed comparision with “train with no break” is not apples-to-apples because there are no breakless trains servicing the route. It is not a hypothetical comparision with some hypothetical train service and hypothetical planes. It is the comparision between the realworld situation on trains and airplanes right now. The discussion about industrial capacity just illustrates how this difference have happened.
- tguvot 3y ago
  where from you got idea about "best metallurgists" ? and domestic aerospace industry is a boutique shop (especially when we are talking about civilian planes) that mostly relies on foreign components. their production goals are like 10 planes a year
tguvot 3y ago
maybe they can make train brakes, but they can't make bearings.
- evader01101 3y ago
  [dead]

woodruffw 3y ago

> No. Not really. Russia has the means to produce brakes for their trains. They do not have the means to do the same for these airplanes. I meant in terms of riders' perceptions of safety, not industrial capacity. That being said, it astounds me that Russia can't fabricate replacement breaks here: we're talking about a country with some of the best metallurgists in the world and a domestic aerospace industry; what gives?

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
No one ever said that they can't. But going from zero to being able to buy replacement Boeing (or whoever the OEM was) brakes off the shelf is a process of many months (in the optimistic case) or years, not weeks. After all, even the simplest analysis for an aviation supplier has to be "can we make enough money selling these replacement brakes to cover the cost of setting up a manufacturing, quality control, and distribution system?"
- woodruffw 3y ago
  This would have made sense 12 months or even 9 months ago, but we're now 18 months into a war that Russia's government had otherwise been preparing domestically for. Again: what gives?
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    They hadn't been preparing for it to last 18 months, and part of their preparation had been oriented at influence operations to preemptivelt disrupt Western unity and political response when the war qas launched. While I won't say that categorically failed (it still has tangible effects), it has been far from a complete success.
  - jamiek88 3y ago
    It’s an incompetent oligarchy where competence is dangerous and gets you sidelined. Rotten from the top down.
    - foverzar 3y ago
      And here come 2 minutes hate people
      - kspacewalk2 3y ago
        Where's the hate?
        foverzar 3y ago
        Are you serious? It's an obvious slander bs. Btw, it's a reference to Orwell.
        kspacewalk2 3y ago
        Yes, obviously it's a reference to Orwell. However, I see no hate. Criticism of fascist invasions and their perpetrators is not hate.
        foverzar 3y ago
        Firstly, if you understood that this is a reference, why are you trying to interpret separate words literally? And secondly, there was no constructive criticism or even any mention of "fascism" or "invasion". Following your own logic, I could - just for the sake of example, mind you - claim that you come from hellish slave-hole where people eat babies and then justify it with actually literally the same slogan as you did. Would that be as fucking stupid? Yes, it would. Now, should I expect you to accuse me of whataboutism for trying to build a consistent logical framework?
  - foverzar 3y ago
    > 18 months into a war that Russia's government had otherwise been preparing domestically for Eh, I think we all saw how "prepared" Russia was. In any case, I think the following factors are definitive here: - No one really considers the current situation as "permanent". The war will be over at some point and life will go on. So investing in manufacturing of those specific parts might prove a waste. - This is specifically an issue with parts for foreign aircrafts. Is it even worth producing parts for foreign crafts? - There are ways to evade sanctions and smuggle parts and right now, to some degree - Russia passed a legislation allowing 3rd-party parts and signed a contract with Iran on airplane maintainance and parts supply - Iran already has an expertise and industrial capacity operating in somewhat similar conditions. Iran also has more experience smuggling. Obviously, that work had started many months ago, not just now.
  - ufmace 3y ago
    It's pretty clear that the war was planned under the assumption that they'd just march straight into Kiev, maybe shoot a few hardcases, scare the rest with how awesome they were, and basically be welcomed as liberators by most. When that failed to work, they didn't seem to have any idea what to actually do next, besides claiming the attack on Kiev was always supposed to have been a feint and the real goal was always to grab a few chunks of eastern Ukraine.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Also, Russian manufacturing may have other urgent priorities right now. Wars (fought outside of the homeland) may be good for employment and industrialization broadly, but they often are the opposite for application of industry to civilian ends.
krisoft 3y ago
> I meant in terms of riders' perceptions of safety But that is what I am saying. The apples-to-apples comparision is “airplane with questionable/no brakes” vs “train with brakes”. There the “apple” is “as the thing is right now when you want to travel”. The proposed comparision with “train with no break” is not apples-to-apples because there are no breakless trains servicing the route. It is not a hypothetical comparision with some hypothetical train service and hypothetical planes. It is the comparision between the realworld situation on trains and airplanes right now. The discussion about industrial capacity just illustrates how this difference have happened.
tguvot 3y ago
where from you got idea about "best metallurgists" ? and domestic aerospace industry is a boutique shop (especially when we are talking about civilian planes) that mostly relies on foreign components. their production goals are like 10 planes a year

tguvot 3y ago

maybe they can make train brakes, but they can't make bearings.

evader01101 3y ago
[dead]