5 ms·

Apparently the TOS can be edited at any time to say anything without notice. It’s worth mentioning that per this agreement they can still do almost anything el

Apparently the TOS can be edited at any time to say anything without notice. It’s worth mentioning that per this agreement they can still do almost anything else with that data. They could put your face up on a billboard if they wanted to. I’m out. I was a paying user. Can’t run fast enough from ever doing business with them again.

sleepybrett 3y ago
How about analyze all the meetings from company x in order to insider trade or perform some other kind of corporate sabatoge.
- nomel 3y ago
  > or perform some other kind of corporate sabatoge. Webex seems to be the "corporate" video conference service, when secrets are a concern, from my experience.
gnfargbl 3y ago
Which provider will you be moving to, and have you checked that their ToS are more acceptable?
- Simorgh 3y ago
  This is the question! Is there anything anyone would recommend on security grounds? Enterprise may resonate with something with Signal level e2ee. Has anyone tried Element IO, as an example, in a commercial setting? Asking for a friend.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37021910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37021910
- freedude 3y ago
  jitsi https://meet.jit.si/ https://meet.jit.si/
- aftbit 3y ago
  If you don't need the "advanced" zoom features, I can highly recommend Jitsi. Free public service and you can self-host if you need it. We have been running a fully remote company with 90% of meetings via Jitsi since COVID with great success. I recommend Chrome over Firefox though, as FF's WebRTC support is behind Google's.
  - cudgy 3y ago
    Doesn’t using a Google product taint the solution, if privacy is a major concern? Also, WebRTC leaks ip addresses when using a VPN. What is the secure way to video conference? Webex? FaceTime offers end to end encryption, but can not easily share non-mac os screens. Articles like this sure make me like Apple sometimes https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/20/apple-imessage-facetime-remove-security-law/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/20/apple-imessage-facetime-remov...
    - aftbit 3y ago
      Yeah, though I don't really understand your privacy/security model. If you are worried about being targeted directly by Google or some three letter agency, you certainly should not use any of this technology. Instead, you need to go back to the basics, to something running on a physically segregated network, with a much smaller attack surface area. If you are just worried about being dragnet tracked, you are way better off with Jitsi than Zoom even if you end up using Chromium to connect to the session.
  - dolmen 3y ago
    Jitsi but using Chrome doesn't fix anything privacy-wise.
    - aftbit 3y ago
      Well for me it does, at least to some extent, as I use Chromium built by Arch Linux and run a new clean profile for each call. I highly doubt Google is collecting my actual data (not metadata), like AV streams or even web history, in this configuration.
- TheRealDunkirk 3y ago
  Most "free markets" in the US -- certainly all that matter -- are dominated by 2 or 3 players, and when they all agree to do the same sorts of anti-consumer things, there's nowhere to go. Even if Teams or some other small player has better ToS now, who's to say they won't do the same thing tomorrow? Or do it anyway, without telling anyone?
nwoli 3y ago
Per the agreement using the service can probably be considered consent. Ie “we won’t use your data without your consent” translates to legal code “if you accept the TOS which you do if you use the app, then you’ve given consent”
- mnw21cam 3y ago
  That argument wouldn't fly in a court of law in the EU/UK, but many many companies try it on anyway.
JohnFen 3y ago
> Apparently the TOS can be edited at any time to say anything without notice. Yes, as with most terms of service. It's one of the things that makes terms of service statements unreliable.
- esperent 3y ago
  This is not true. At least in the US you are required to notify customers when you change the terms of service, and as far as I know in the EU as well.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I'm well aware of the US court ruling in the early 2000s that declared the users must be notified of ToS changes. And yet, companies frequently change ToS without providing such notification in a way that customers will actually notice anyway, so it doesn't seem to matter much.
fragmede 3y ago
Unfortunately it's like Gmail. Even if I'm not using them, enough other places do that it's not feasible to totally avoid them without adding complications to my life. Those complications might be worth it to you, but eg my therapist's office uses Zoom for the backend of their app. You'd never know it unless you're the kind of person to dig into that.
nabakin 3y ago
Edit: they added the line back again -_- They just made another edit and removed the line. Here's the edit history going all the way back to March: - 4/1 https://www.diffchecker.com/dCuVSMnp/ https://www.diffchecker.com/dCuVSMnp/ - 7/1 https://www.diffchecker.com/Zny4Rjqw/ https://www.diffchecker.com/Zny4Rjqw/ - 8/7 https://www.diffchecker.com/ER0RHSdb/ https://www.diffchecker.com/ER0RHSdb/ - 8/8 https://www.diffchecker.com/RLiqgAaA/ https://www.diffchecker.com/RLiqgAaA/

sleepybrett 3y ago

How about analyze all the meetings from company x in order to insider trade or perform some other kind of corporate sabatoge.

nomel 3y ago
> or perform some other kind of corporate sabatoge. Webex seems to be the "corporate" video conference service, when secrets are a concern, from my experience.

gnfargbl 3y ago

Which provider will you be moving to, and have you checked that their ToS are more acceptable?

Simorgh 3y ago
This is the question! Is there anything anyone would recommend on security grounds? Enterprise may resonate with something with Signal level e2ee. Has anyone tried Element IO, as an example, in a commercial setting? Asking for a friend.
- fsflover 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37021910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37021910
freedude 3y ago
jitsi https://meet.jit.si/ https://meet.jit.si/
aftbit 3y ago
If you don't need the "advanced" zoom features, I can highly recommend Jitsi. Free public service and you can self-host if you need it. We have been running a fully remote company with 90% of meetings via Jitsi since COVID with great success. I recommend Chrome over Firefox though, as FF's WebRTC support is behind Google's.
- cudgy 3y ago
  Doesn’t using a Google product taint the solution, if privacy is a major concern? Also, WebRTC leaks ip addresses when using a VPN. What is the secure way to video conference? Webex? FaceTime offers end to end encryption, but can not easily share non-mac os screens. Articles like this sure make me like Apple sometimes https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/20/apple-imessage-facetime-remove-security-law/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/07/20/apple-imessage-facetime-remov...
  - aftbit 3y ago
    Yeah, though I don't really understand your privacy/security model. If you are worried about being targeted directly by Google or some three letter agency, you certainly should not use any of this technology. Instead, you need to go back to the basics, to something running on a physically segregated network, with a much smaller attack surface area. If you are just worried about being dragnet tracked, you are way better off with Jitsi than Zoom even if you end up using Chromium to connect to the session.
- dolmen 3y ago
  Jitsi but using Chrome doesn't fix anything privacy-wise.
  - aftbit 3y ago
    Well for me it does, at least to some extent, as I use Chromium built by Arch Linux and run a new clean profile for each call. I highly doubt Google is collecting my actual data (not metadata), like AV streams or even web history, in this configuration.
TheRealDunkirk 3y ago
Most "free markets" in the US -- certainly all that matter -- are dominated by 2 or 3 players, and when they all agree to do the same sorts of anti-consumer things, there's nowhere to go. Even if Teams or some other small player has better ToS now, who's to say they won't do the same thing tomorrow? Or do it anyway, without telling anyone?

nwoli 3y ago

Per the agreement using the service can probably be considered consent. Ie “we won’t use your data without your consent” translates to legal code “if you accept the TOS which you do if you use the app, then you’ve given consent”

mnw21cam 3y ago
That argument wouldn't fly in a court of law in the EU/UK, but many many companies try it on anyway.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Apparently the TOS can be edited at any time to say anything without notice. Yes, as with most terms of service. It's one of the things that makes terms of service statements unreliable.

esperent 3y ago
This is not true. At least in the US you are required to notify customers when you change the terms of service, and as far as I know in the EU as well.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I'm well aware of the US court ruling in the early 2000s that declared the users must be notified of ToS changes. And yet, companies frequently change ToS without providing such notification in a way that customers will actually notice anyway, so it doesn't seem to matter much.

fragmede 3y ago

Unfortunately it's like Gmail. Even if I'm not using them, enough other places do that it's not feasible to totally avoid them without adding complications to my life. Those complications might be worth it to you, but eg my therapist's office uses Zoom for the backend of their app. You'd never know it unless you're the kind of person to dig into that.

nabakin 3y ago

Edit: they added the line back again -_- They just made another edit and removed the line. Here's the edit history going all the way back to March: - 4/1 https://www.diffchecker.com/dCuVSMnp/ https://www.diffchecker.com/dCuVSMnp/ - 7/1 https://www.diffchecker.com/Zny4Rjqw/ https://www.diffchecker.com/Zny4Rjqw/ - 8/7 https://www.diffchecker.com/ER0RHSdb/ https://www.diffchecker.com/ER0RHSdb/ - 8/8 https://www.diffchecker.com/RLiqgAaA/ https://www.diffchecker.com/RLiqgAaA/