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I find it kinda wild that we are seeing article after article of people dismissing this without actually experiencing it first hand. We also can't ignore that

I find it kinda wild that we are seeing article after article of people dismissing this without actually experiencing it first hand. We also can't ignore that in every image shown, it appears they are using a virtual screen that is far larger than what most people likely have. meaning the text will be larger. You could argue that this is to fix a flaw with the hardware but it is also something that you are able to do when you are not dealing with a physical limitation. Regardless of that because I am not going to pretend to understand a lot of what is in this article, it is way over my head. I feel like the thing that we keep ignoring here is that this is not meant to be a great success right out the gate. Apple knows this with how they are pricing it and how they are talking about it, including it being a "pro" version first. This will be a niche device while the hardware catches up with what the software can do. But ignoring that eventually the hardware will be able to do this just fine and not building the software now would be stupid on Apple's part. I think it remains to be seen what exactly this hardware can and cannot do, but more importantly what we are looking at 2 or 3 versions down the road. Unlike basically every other company that has tried to to make a product like this, Apple has a track record of not shutting down projects and having "hobby" projects that take a few generations to finally hit their potential. Once the hardware manages to catch up, is smaller, etc it feels kinda nieve to think that we would remain stuck to monitors for computing. Is it guaranteed? no of course not. But I would not dismiss it yet based on how this guy is talking in the comments about the future. We saw a lot of the same dismissal of smart phones for most people's computing needs.

justinator 3y ago
> it appears they are using a virtual screen that is far larger than what most people likely have. meaning the text will be larger I mean it's just a concept marketing photo - the screen doesn't actually project out to be seen by anyone else. The projection is made for friggin' ants (kinda literally).
- nerdjon 3y ago
  I realize that it doesn't project out, but for every reason that matters it does for the person that is wearing the headset. https://i0.wp.com/kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/AVP-Multiple-Windows.jpg https://i0.wp.com/kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/AVP... look at that image. Judging by the guy in front that middle virtual monitor is probably 3 times the size of my current monitor which is 32". If I want more than 1 monitor (I have 3) I can't imagine actually having anything larger than that in a physical space. But in virtual? Why not. And that is what apple is showing with these images.
  - tirpen 3y ago
    I feel like neck stress/pain will be a thing in VR/AR just as it is in real life, so monitor size and positioning will have to follow at least kind of similar principles as IRL ones do if you care about ergonomics at all.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      That is a valid point, and I am curious how that part will work out in the real world. I do think about my setup, how much space is basically lost to speakers, space for my keyboard and hands (not that I wouldn't use that in this setup but I could kinda not think about it). Or just non traditional aspect ratios as shown in that image. But I agree, I think it remains to be seen how that works in the real world as far as proper sizing and ergonomics goes. But I think there is room for some expansion on what we would normally have now.
    - cududa 3y ago
      One scenario I'm hoping for: I had a device that was about the size of a lighter (but even smaller) that you would wear around a necklace under your shirt, between your shoulder blades. You'd calibrate it and over time it would train your posture as you slumped by vibrating gently. I'm not trying to comment/ debate on if this will ever be a mass-market product, but, it would be fascinating if they built a posture corrector into it, and it ends up that AVP users develop better posture compared to keyboard/ mouse/ screen users
  - justinator 3y ago
    Again, it's just a concept photo. The graphics designer hasn't used the product, nor has the model. They made the image to look pretty - the model, the monitors: they're all laid out in the rule of thirds. We shouldn't try to tease out what it should be like using this thing. To play devil's advocate, your 32" monitor is more than 3x as large as the 13" monitor I'm working. People use interfaces on wall-mounted TVs that are 3x your 32" monitor just fine.
treis 3y ago
It's really just math. You can't simulate a 3840 x 2160 screen with a 1920 x 1920 headset. So until the headsets get more resolution than monitors the monitors will look better. Especially for text.
- dharmab 3y ago
  Is it _trying_ to simulate a 4k display? Or is it trying to provide something different- a large panorama of 1920x1920 windows?
  - Tagbert 3y ago
    Neither really. The VP uses a pair of 4K displays to render a high dpi section where it sense your eyes focusing. This is out of a much wider virtual display space (potentially 360deg). As your eyes and head move it shifts the image through that high resolution area. the space outside that area is rendered in a lower resolution to match your peripheral vision. This technique is called foveated rendering. People who have tried the demos say that it is a seamless experience. Moving your eyes and head around, you see things rendered at a 4K resolution but it appears that the space around you is unbounded.
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      This is wrong. The eye tracking is only to reduce the computational demands, it doesn't change the DPI of the screen *at all". It's purely an optimization trick. I don't know why people keep repeating this myth. It's just not how it works. It's not moving around pixels in the physical display.
- gcanyon 3y ago
  You don't look at all of a 3840x2160 screen, with a need for pixel-precision all over it. Doing a test right now, I'm focusing on the 13-inch computer screen where I'm typing this and holding up a large container of cashews directly to the right of the display. It's literally less than 30 degrees to the right of my focus, and the word "cashews" is in half-inch-high letters, and I can't remotely read the word without moving my eyes over to it.
joemi 3y ago
You bring up a good point that covers why I'm most excited for the AVP: I'm really excited about what later versions will be like. This first AVP is kind of like the first iPhone for me. Obviously not perfect, but the UI will probably be far better than anything before it, and later versions are going to be really awesome.
- jasmer 3y ago
  [dead]
NBJack 3y ago
The article IMHO does a great job breaking down the pixel arrangement, troubles with rasterization, how modern monitors basically cheat to get sharper text, and so on. TL;DR: VR/AR suffers greatly with text. The only way Apple will potentially mitigate this will be via clever rendering tricks. But he is very likely correct: this will not be a replacement for monitors.
- falcolas 3y ago
  So, one problem with this statement: People are working with virtual monitors today using far worse DPI equipment. This is an iteration on something that already exists. Probably won't be perfect, but it can and will be a monitor replacement for some.
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    It's not far worse. My display at home has 60% of the Li ear resolution of the AVP, the experience is terrible for productivity. I've tried displays that come very close at 80%, and it's still unusable for me. If the screens are reasonably size so that I don't have to move my neck all the time or suffer optical aberrations, like my real life screens, I get an effective resolution of ~720p. We can see that this will be similar : the AVP has ~35 pixels per degree, my screens are about 45 degrees, so I can expect 1575 pixels across and 885 vertically, so just a tad better than 720p. In practice you'll lose significant resolution to optical aberrations unless your neck makes it point right there. Who is using 24inch 720p displays in 2023? You can get at least a 1080p for like 20$ on classifieds and 100$ new. This is sitting as close to the display as you ever should, btw. A 24inch screen will be 45 degrees wide if you're sitting less than 1 meter (36in) away from it.
charcircuit 3y ago
>I find it kinda wild that we are seeing article after article of people dismissing this without actually experiencing it first hand. Current VR has fundamental problems that can't all be solved with just some clever software tricks. This article is stating some problems that the headset will have to face. He doesn't dismiss the headset in the article. >Once the hardware manages to catch up, is smaller, etc it feels kinda nieve to think that we would remain stuck to monitors for computing. The friction of having to wear something on your head, along with the weight of the device will always make monitors a good option as they are very good at being 2D displays in the word. >We saw a lot of the same dismissal of smart phones for most people's computing needs. Show me where people dismissed smartphones over them having bad text rendering.
- Edman274 3y ago
  People dismissed smartphones and tablets because they have bad text input, which isn't exactly the same, but the purpose of their statement is not to say "the literally exact same criticism was leveled at phones" but rather "people also had somewhat similar objections and look where we are now in spite of that". If you are being honest with yourself, you will remember that when the iPhone was first unveiled, you, I, and everyone that currently browses Hackernews thought the idea of a phone that was only a touchscreen and a few buttons was absurd. The iPad was similarly seen as ridiculous. We now live in a world where tablets, smartphones, laptops, and desktop computers all have their own niches and where a standalone desktop with a dedicated monitor, keyboard and mouse is seen as a specialist device. A headset may become yet another entrant in the "yes, and" world of computing. The historical experience suggests that we should have some humility around predicting what people will latch on to.
tinus_hn 3y ago
> I find it kinda wild that we are seeing article after article of people dismissing this without actually experiencing it first hand I suppose you haven’t been following Apple News for long. The cycle is always the same, everyone is explaining why it’s a worthless product, too expensive, no market, doesn’t work, whatever. And then later they’re all about how obvious of a product it is, they or their favorite manufacturer did it ten times better, Apple needs to give the technology away. Remember Slashdots out-of-hand dismissal for the iPod: ‘No wireless? Less space than a Nomad? Lame’. It sounds so obvious why the product is bad, but it turns out it’s focusing on things that don’t matter.
mdekkers 3y ago
Whenever I read about the AVP being a dud, I am reminded of my own reaction to the first iphone: “it is a stupid idea and it will never catch on” whilst proudly clutching my Nokia communicator. I think the AVP 2 or 3 is going to be great.
neuralRiot 3y ago
> it feels kinda nieve to think that we would remain stuck to monitors for computing. One simple reason: “Hey Stephen, is this what you were looking for” (points to picture of x device on the monitor) Stephen- (without even raising from his chair) Yeah but in red, where did you find it?

justinator 3y ago

> it appears they are using a virtual screen that is far larger than what most people likely have. meaning the text will be larger I mean it's just a concept marketing photo - the screen doesn't actually project out to be seen by anyone else. The projection is made for friggin' ants (kinda literally).

nerdjon 3y ago
I realize that it doesn't project out, but for every reason that matters it does for the person that is wearing the headset. https://i0.wp.com/kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/AVP-Multiple-Windows.jpg https://i0.wp.com/kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/AVP... look at that image. Judging by the guy in front that middle virtual monitor is probably 3 times the size of my current monitor which is 32". If I want more than 1 monitor (I have 3) I can't imagine actually having anything larger than that in a physical space. But in virtual? Why not. And that is what apple is showing with these images.
- tirpen 3y ago
  I feel like neck stress/pain will be a thing in VR/AR just as it is in real life, so monitor size and positioning will have to follow at least kind of similar principles as IRL ones do if you care about ergonomics at all.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    That is a valid point, and I am curious how that part will work out in the real world. I do think about my setup, how much space is basically lost to speakers, space for my keyboard and hands (not that I wouldn't use that in this setup but I could kinda not think about it). Or just non traditional aspect ratios as shown in that image. But I agree, I think it remains to be seen how that works in the real world as far as proper sizing and ergonomics goes. But I think there is room for some expansion on what we would normally have now.
  - cududa 3y ago
    One scenario I'm hoping for: I had a device that was about the size of a lighter (but even smaller) that you would wear around a necklace under your shirt, between your shoulder blades. You'd calibrate it and over time it would train your posture as you slumped by vibrating gently. I'm not trying to comment/ debate on if this will ever be a mass-market product, but, it would be fascinating if they built a posture corrector into it, and it ends up that AVP users develop better posture compared to keyboard/ mouse/ screen users
- justinator 3y ago
  Again, it's just a concept photo. The graphics designer hasn't used the product, nor has the model. They made the image to look pretty - the model, the monitors: they're all laid out in the rule of thirds. We shouldn't try to tease out what it should be like using this thing. To play devil's advocate, your 32" monitor is more than 3x as large as the 13" monitor I'm working. People use interfaces on wall-mounted TVs that are 3x your 32" monitor just fine.

treis 3y ago

It's really just math. You can't simulate a 3840 x 2160 screen with a 1920 x 1920 headset. So until the headsets get more resolution than monitors the monitors will look better. Especially for text.

dharmab 3y ago
Is it _trying_ to simulate a 4k display? Or is it trying to provide something different- a large panorama of 1920x1920 windows?
- Tagbert 3y ago
  Neither really. The VP uses a pair of 4K displays to render a high dpi section where it sense your eyes focusing. This is out of a much wider virtual display space (potentially 360deg). As your eyes and head move it shifts the image through that high resolution area. the space outside that area is rendered in a lower resolution to match your peripheral vision. This technique is called foveated rendering. People who have tried the demos say that it is a seamless experience. Moving your eyes and head around, you see things rendered at a 4K resolution but it appears that the space around you is unbounded.
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    This is wrong. The eye tracking is only to reduce the computational demands, it doesn't change the DPI of the screen *at all". It's purely an optimization trick. I don't know why people keep repeating this myth. It's just not how it works. It's not moving around pixels in the physical display.
gcanyon 3y ago
You don't look at all of a 3840x2160 screen, with a need for pixel-precision all over it. Doing a test right now, I'm focusing on the 13-inch computer screen where I'm typing this and holding up a large container of cashews directly to the right of the display. It's literally less than 30 degrees to the right of my focus, and the word "cashews" is in half-inch-high letters, and I can't remotely read the word without moving my eyes over to it.

joemi 3y ago

You bring up a good point that covers why I'm most excited for the AVP: I'm really excited about what later versions will be like. This first AVP is kind of like the first iPhone for me. Obviously not perfect, but the UI will probably be far better than anything before it, and later versions are going to be really awesome.

jasmer 3y ago
[dead]

NBJack 3y ago

The article IMHO does a great job breaking down the pixel arrangement, troubles with rasterization, how modern monitors basically cheat to get sharper text, and so on. TL;DR: VR/AR suffers greatly with text. The only way Apple will potentially mitigate this will be via clever rendering tricks. But he is very likely correct: this will not be a replacement for monitors.

falcolas 3y ago
So, one problem with this statement: People are working with virtual monitors today using far worse DPI equipment. This is an iteration on something that already exists. Probably won't be perfect, but it can and will be a monitor replacement for some.
- sudosysgen 3y ago
  It's not far worse. My display at home has 60% of the Li ear resolution of the AVP, the experience is terrible for productivity. I've tried displays that come very close at 80%, and it's still unusable for me. If the screens are reasonably size so that I don't have to move my neck all the time or suffer optical aberrations, like my real life screens, I get an effective resolution of ~720p. We can see that this will be similar : the AVP has ~35 pixels per degree, my screens are about 45 degrees, so I can expect 1575 pixels across and 885 vertically, so just a tad better than 720p. In practice you'll lose significant resolution to optical aberrations unless your neck makes it point right there. Who is using 24inch 720p displays in 2023? You can get at least a 1080p for like 20$ on classifieds and 100$ new. This is sitting as close to the display as you ever should, btw. A 24inch screen will be 45 degrees wide if you're sitting less than 1 meter (36in) away from it.

charcircuit 3y ago

>I find it kinda wild that we are seeing article after article of people dismissing this without actually experiencing it first hand. Current VR has fundamental problems that can't all be solved with just some clever software tricks. This article is stating some problems that the headset will have to face. He doesn't dismiss the headset in the article. >Once the hardware manages to catch up, is smaller, etc it feels kinda nieve to think that we would remain stuck to monitors for computing. The friction of having to wear something on your head, along with the weight of the device will always make monitors a good option as they are very good at being 2D displays in the word. >We saw a lot of the same dismissal of smart phones for most people's computing needs. Show me where people dismissed smartphones over them having bad text rendering.

Edman274 3y ago
People dismissed smartphones and tablets because they have bad text input, which isn't exactly the same, but the purpose of their statement is not to say "the literally exact same criticism was leveled at phones" but rather "people also had somewhat similar objections and look where we are now in spite of that". If you are being honest with yourself, you will remember that when the iPhone was first unveiled, you, I, and everyone that currently browses Hackernews thought the idea of a phone that was only a touchscreen and a few buttons was absurd. The iPad was similarly seen as ridiculous. We now live in a world where tablets, smartphones, laptops, and desktop computers all have their own niches and where a standalone desktop with a dedicated monitor, keyboard and mouse is seen as a specialist device. A headset may become yet another entrant in the "yes, and" world of computing. The historical experience suggests that we should have some humility around predicting what people will latch on to.

tinus_hn 3y ago

> I find it kinda wild that we are seeing article after article of people dismissing this without actually experiencing it first hand I suppose you haven’t been following Apple News for long. The cycle is always the same, everyone is explaining why it’s a worthless product, too expensive, no market, doesn’t work, whatever. And then later they’re all about how obvious of a product it is, they or their favorite manufacturer did it ten times better, Apple needs to give the technology away. Remember Slashdots out-of-hand dismissal for the iPod: ‘No wireless? Less space than a Nomad? Lame’. It sounds so obvious why the product is bad, but it turns out it’s focusing on things that don’t matter.

mdekkers 3y ago

Whenever I read about the AVP being a dud, I am reminded of my own reaction to the first iphone: “it is a stupid idea and it will never catch on” whilst proudly clutching my Nokia communicator. I think the AVP 2 or 3 is going to be great.

neuralRiot 3y ago

> it feels kinda nieve to think that we would remain stuck to monitors for computing. One simple reason: “Hey Stephen, is this what you were looking for” (points to picture of x device on the monitor) Stephen- (without even raising from his chair) Yeah but in red, where did you find it?