7 ms·

Is that the kind of UBI we want though? If it has a single issuer, like the government, then it has a single point of control which can be used to coerce people

Is that the kind of UBI we want though? If it has a single issuer, like the government, then it has a single point of control which can be used to coerce people (i.e. by threatening to take it away). The ideal UBI system would let you threaten to overthrow your government in a way that does not threaten the integrity of UBI. It ought to be a safety net that makes otherwise impractical growth possible. As a crypto, CirclesUBI is a bit of a disaster (e.g. the hosted UI, and sensitivity to certain kinds of attack), but I think they got the tokenomics right: it encourages Sybil resistant behavior among the users without trying to bind an address to your body and without relying on an issuer's good behavior.

Ataraxic 3y ago
> The ideal UBI system would let you threaten to overthrow your government... Crypto Anarchism is not attractive the vast majority of people. I'll argue the UBI people want involves their government sending them a check, direct deposit, or cash.
- landemva 3y ago
  Since USA still controls it's currency issuance (unlike EU members), why isn't this in place today? Rename food stamps and WIC into newUBI and start rolling it out.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  Given that we'd have to all conspire to respect the UBI token while we replaced the government, I'd classify it as cryptocommunism, but I take your point. I just have a hard time imagining a government that both: - keeps the U in UBI - is not under some kind if existential threat from its people You need the latter to have the former. But if you're coordinated to achieve the latter then you don't really need the government to achieve the former anyway.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> The ideal UBI system would let you threaten to overthrow your government in a way that does not threaten the integrity of UBI If you can, categorically, overthrow it without threatening the integrity of UBI in its territory, it was never actually the government in the first place.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > can, categorically, overthrow it without threatening the integrity of UBI in its territory, it was never actually the government in the first place Which underlines the ridiculousness of the thought experiment. The solution to wars being destructive is...a blockchain?
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    there's a civil war ongoing but your income is still at its pre-war level (without any devaluation, meaning you keep your pre-war purchasing power) thanks to the magic of the blockchain.
    - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
      It would come down to devaluation by whom right? If everybody wants the war to end and both sides see you as somebody that is working towards a reasonable plan of ending it, then I expect your tokens would go pretty far. And even if you're not the magical mediator who ends the war, what matters is not some global market evaluation, what matters is your tokens' evaluation by the people who grow the food that you eat and your evaluation of their tokens as well. Reciprocal exchange and utility, not market value.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > devaluation by whom right This isn't how currencies lose value in wars. If the amount of money doesn't change, but half the factories are bombed, the output of the remaining factories rises in value relative to that currency. (Ceteris paribus.) The only way around this is to backstop production with unbombed factories. Something a blockchain does jack squat about.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        Yes, and not only the factories, but the entierty of the supply chain, combined with war profiteers driving prices artificially even higher. Contrary to the freshwater meme Inflation is rarely primarily a monetary phenomenon, but it's even less the case during a war.

Ataraxic 3y ago

> The ideal UBI system would let you threaten to overthrow your government... Crypto Anarchism is not attractive the vast majority of people. I'll argue the UBI people want involves their government sending them a check, direct deposit, or cash.

landemva 3y ago
Since USA still controls it's currency issuance (unlike EU members), why isn't this in place today? Rename food stamps and WIC into newUBI and start rolling it out.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
Given that we'd have to all conspire to respect the UBI token while we replaced the government, I'd classify it as cryptocommunism, but I take your point. I just have a hard time imagining a government that both: - keeps the U in UBI - is not under some kind if existential threat from its people You need the latter to have the former. But if you're coordinated to achieve the latter then you don't really need the government to achieve the former anyway.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> The ideal UBI system would let you threaten to overthrow your government in a way that does not threaten the integrity of UBI If you can, categorically, overthrow it without threatening the integrity of UBI in its territory, it was never actually the government in the first place.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> can, categorically, overthrow it without threatening the integrity of UBI in its territory, it was never actually the government in the first place Which underlines the ridiculousness of the thought experiment. The solution to wars being destructive is...a blockchain?
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  there's a civil war ongoing but your income is still at its pre-war level (without any devaluation, meaning you keep your pre-war purchasing power) thanks to the magic of the blockchain.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    It would come down to devaluation by whom right? If everybody wants the war to end and both sides see you as somebody that is working towards a reasonable plan of ending it, then I expect your tokens would go pretty far. And even if you're not the magical mediator who ends the war, what matters is not some global market evaluation, what matters is your tokens' evaluation by the people who grow the food that you eat and your evaluation of their tokens as well. Reciprocal exchange and utility, not market value.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > devaluation by whom right This isn't how currencies lose value in wars. If the amount of money doesn't change, but half the factories are bombed, the output of the remaining factories rises in value relative to that currency. (Ceteris paribus.) The only way around this is to backstop production with unbombed factories. Something a blockchain does jack squat about.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        Yes, and not only the factories, but the entierty of the supply chain, combined with war profiteers driving prices artificially even higher. Contrary to the freshwater meme Inflation is rarely primarily a monetary phenomenon, but it's even less the case during a war.