3 ms·

Wonderful question! The most important problem at the societal level is: sustenance, stability, avoidance of complete ruin. And by extension, all the sub-proce

Wonderful question! The most important problem at the societal level is: sustenance, stability, avoidance of complete ruin. And by extension, all the sub-processes that contribute to those goals. Education, economy, law, healthcare, training -- all these contribute to the resolution of social problems. The most important problem at the individual level is: that of realising the nature of self, the mind, the system called "thought"; moving towards an understanding of what the actual position of the individual is in the greater universal order. In most popular culture discourses, one rarely sees any focused activity towards these goals in meaningful ways.

em-bee 3y ago
i like to be more direct and outright state that everyones position in the greater order is that of a contributor to a better world. there is nothing else that is required from the individual besides that. i find that this is important because an "understanding of what the actual position of the individual is in the greater universal order" also works when i say "your position is to be a slave, deal with it." so moving towards an understanding of the position of the individual is not enough. we also need to be clear that this position is the same for everyone, and that we are all part of this equally. there is no hierarchy. combine that with the realization that progress is only achievable through collaboration and you realize that if we want to solve the worlds problems we need to contribute and collaborate.
- atomicnature 3y ago
  Whether a billionaire in the condo or a beggar on the street, both are equally subject to laws of the universe. This is true under both physical and mental platforms. That's the position of every human. The so-called master and slave both "obey" the dictates of the universe. For instance, you were given no choice about where/when and in what conditions you were born. There is no choice on the matter of upbringing either. Upto an extent, no influence over the early education process as well. You have zero control over most of your bodily and mental processes. The body ages and disintegrates over time. And there's not much you can do about it. And let's not get started about the mind. Quick check: What's going to be your next thought? You have no idea what your next thought is going to be. Given these indisputable indications at human helplessness (mostly), we still go on about all sorts of narratives about master, slave, freedom, equality, whatnot. I recommend you read David Bohm's Thought as a System [1] to learn about what I am talking about in more depth. It may free you from some potentially problematic assumptions you make in your answer. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Thought-as-System-Key-Ideas/dp/0415110300 https://www.amazon.com/Thought-as-System-Key-Ideas/dp/041511... PS: It is important to differentiate action from understanding. More and more action doesn't clear up mental fog on its own (that is, more "contribution", will not automatically give more "clarity"). Bohm recommends "dialogue" as a way to cultivate insight (not that it always works, but there's some potential in it).
  - em-bee 3y ago
    please tell me what problematic assumptions i am making. to me this is quite clear. i see the purpose of life to be part of our civilization and contribute to it to move it forward. beyond that there is only personal improvement to become a better person. both are equally important because we can't wait to be a better person before we contribute. on the contrary, contributing is part of what makes us a better person. so i focus on contributing and trying to become a better person through my contributions.
    - atomicnature 3y ago
      While I appreciate your good intentions, we should not confuse them with assured good consequences. The proverb "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is quite apt here. If human history is to be considered, there's strong reason to be cautious towards good intentions alone. When people fought world wars, they did for the country, their people, all with good intentions. When great geniuses created the A bomb and destroyed millions, they did it with good intentions. Good intent is always on surplus in human history, but good consequences have been on deficit. Bohm tried to debug this disparity, this freak result from human conduct. His answer? The illusory and deceptive nature of thought is the root cause. The worries about next world war, ecological disasters, unbridled hate, international conflict all can be traced to thought considered as a system. Some of his insights are: Thought is not as simple and straightforward as it was thought (yep). You're not running thought, but thought is running you (yep). Most thought is conditioned, thus ineffective and often leads to dysfunctional or harmful actions. And many other insights. I am sorry I cannot fully summarize his work/understanding here due to time limitations. Please give his works a read.
      - em-bee 3y ago
        you are right. good intentions alone are not enough. the best way to assure good consequences is to talk to those who would be affected, or, if noone is directly affected, research by a sufficiently diverse group of people into possible consequences. that requires consultation with everyone involved and ideally unity in our common goals. so as an individual we should make an effort to contribute, and as a community we should collaborate and consult to develop common goals that take care of the needs of everyone.

em-bee 3y ago

i like to be more direct and outright state that everyones position in the greater order is that of a contributor to a better world. there is nothing else that is required from the individual besides that. i find that this is important because an "understanding of what the actual position of the individual is in the greater universal order" also works when i say "your position is to be a slave, deal with it." so moving towards an understanding of the position of the individual is not enough. we also need to be clear that this position is the same for everyone, and that we are all part of this equally. there is no hierarchy. combine that with the realization that progress is only achievable through collaboration and you realize that if we want to solve the worlds problems we need to contribute and collaborate.

atomicnature 3y ago
Whether a billionaire in the condo or a beggar on the street, both are equally subject to laws of the universe. This is true under both physical and mental platforms. That's the position of every human. The so-called master and slave both "obey" the dictates of the universe. For instance, you were given no choice about where/when and in what conditions you were born. There is no choice on the matter of upbringing either. Upto an extent, no influence over the early education process as well. You have zero control over most of your bodily and mental processes. The body ages and disintegrates over time. And there's not much you can do about it. And let's not get started about the mind. Quick check: What's going to be your next thought? You have no idea what your next thought is going to be. Given these indisputable indications at human helplessness (mostly), we still go on about all sorts of narratives about master, slave, freedom, equality, whatnot. I recommend you read David Bohm's Thought as a System [1] to learn about what I am talking about in more depth. It may free you from some potentially problematic assumptions you make in your answer. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Thought-as-System-Key-Ideas/dp/0415110300 https://www.amazon.com/Thought-as-System-Key-Ideas/dp/041511... PS: It is important to differentiate action from understanding. More and more action doesn't clear up mental fog on its own (that is, more "contribution", will not automatically give more "clarity"). Bohm recommends "dialogue" as a way to cultivate insight (not that it always works, but there's some potential in it).
- em-bee 3y ago
  please tell me what problematic assumptions i am making. to me this is quite clear. i see the purpose of life to be part of our civilization and contribute to it to move it forward. beyond that there is only personal improvement to become a better person. both are equally important because we can't wait to be a better person before we contribute. on the contrary, contributing is part of what makes us a better person. so i focus on contributing and trying to become a better person through my contributions.
  - atomicnature 3y ago
    While I appreciate your good intentions, we should not confuse them with assured good consequences. The proverb "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is quite apt here. If human history is to be considered, there's strong reason to be cautious towards good intentions alone. When people fought world wars, they did for the country, their people, all with good intentions. When great geniuses created the A bomb and destroyed millions, they did it with good intentions. Good intent is always on surplus in human history, but good consequences have been on deficit. Bohm tried to debug this disparity, this freak result from human conduct. His answer? The illusory and deceptive nature of thought is the root cause. The worries about next world war, ecological disasters, unbridled hate, international conflict all can be traced to thought considered as a system. Some of his insights are: Thought is not as simple and straightforward as it was thought (yep). You're not running thought, but thought is running you (yep). Most thought is conditioned, thus ineffective and often leads to dysfunctional or harmful actions. And many other insights. I am sorry I cannot fully summarize his work/understanding here due to time limitations. Please give his works a read.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      you are right. good intentions alone are not enough. the best way to assure good consequences is to talk to those who would be affected, or, if noone is directly affected, research by a sufficiently diverse group of people into possible consequences. that requires consultation with everyone involved and ideally unity in our common goals. so as an individual we should make an effort to contribute, and as a community we should collaborate and consult to develop common goals that take care of the needs of everyone.