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Knocking noses off statuary was a favorite pastime of early Christians. Without a nose, the spirit occupying the statue would be unable to take in the smoke fro

Knocking noses off statuary was a favorite pastime of early Christians. Without a nose, the spirit occupying the statue would be unable to take in the smoke from the offering. They also broke off right hands for similar reasons. The activity is called "iconoclasm". These early Christians ardently believed in such spirits, which they considered demons, and meant to deprive them of sustenance; and more importantly, to deprive competing priests of places to operate. Ancient Egyptians also vandalized more-ancient statuary, but they usually preferred to chisel out the attached name and carve their current king's name in its place so his ka would get the benefit of offerings. Ramses II was especially known for "tagging" ancient statuary; egyptologists, oddly, routinely accept such tags as proof he was responsible for the item.

wsintra2022 3y ago
I also heard that white Europeans knocked the noses off because they had African noses. At the time the westerners thought of Africans as savages and didn’t believe that people of African descent could build such cultural attifa y’a so they would lop the noses off before shipping back to Europe. I think Akala talks about this in his Oxford address.
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- ffhhttt 3y ago
  Except Egyptians are/were more related to “white” Mediterranean Europeans than subsaharan Africans, at least in the lower Egypt. > didn’t believe that people of African descent Sounds like an absurd take considering how fascinated Europeans generally were with ancient Egyptian civilization in the 19th century...
ffhhttt 3y ago
> These early Christians ardently believed in such spirits, which they considered demons, I’m not arguing about the wide scale vandalism. But this bit seems almost entirely like conjecture and generally nonsensical given in Christianity that widespread belief in demons/witches/etc. was a late middle ages/reformation period development. It’s existence wasn’t really compatible with early Christian theology and worldview. Belief in demons and the supernatural (except the Christian god of course) was mainly a relict of paganism at that point e.g. pagan Romans were really into witchunts and the like (which is something the early church tried to crackdown with varying and in many cases not that great degree of success). From the Church’s perspective believing that demons can or exist was almost as bad as worshiping them.
- angiosperm 3y ago
  Maybe you don't recall Jesus evicting demons from pigs? The gospels that report the event are fiction penned between c. 80 - 120 AD, which first-millennium Christians believed implicitly. Medieval belief in demons absolutely relies on biblical authority. Witch hunts and delusions of Satan worship are a different phenomenon. Disbelief in demons is very, very recent, and still far from universal. Christianity (like Judaism) in no way demanded disbelief in spirits, but only primacy of YHVH over the rest. In any case, even a Christian priest who personally disbelieved in spirits occupying statuary would resent competition from pagan priests performing sacrifices. Making the statuary unserviceable was good for business, and being seen doing it with no divine retribution was good theater.
_a_a_a_ 3y ago
Can you give a couple of cites for this, I've never heard of it before and I'm curious, thanks
- smiley1437 3y ago
  One reason I've read is that people (graverobbers?) were superstitious and afraid of statues, and breaking the nose off meant it couldn't 'breathe' and thus had no more life force: https://suzannelovellinc.com/blog/where-did-egyptian-statues-broken-noses-go/ https://suzannelovellinc.com/blog/where-did-egyptian-statues...
- angiosperm 3y ago
  https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2022/05/iconoclasm-of-the-vanities-why-we-are-destroying-statues/ https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2022/05/iconoclasm-of-the... https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/28/the-darkening-age-the-christian-destruction-of-the-classical-world-by-catherine-nixey https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/28/the-darkening-... [Note: this article accepts as factual late-Christian exaggerations of Roman persecution.] https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-egyptian-statues-broken-noses https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-egyptian-statu... [Note: this article confuses details about worship of Amun.]
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    None of your links are to actual scholarship on Christian treatment of pagan infrastructure. If a person asks for a citation about a historical claim, it’s polite to point to something from a university press, instead of mere popular-journalism articles which are hardly more trustworthy than an HN comment.
    - angiosperm 3y ago
      Scholars know how to do their own searches. Popular articles are more accessible to the people who need the help.

wsintra2022 3y ago

I also heard that white Europeans knocked the noses off because they had African noses. At the time the westerners thought of Africans as savages and didn’t believe that people of African descent could build such cultural attifa y’a so they would lop the noses off before shipping back to Europe. I think Akala talks about this in his Oxford address.

deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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ffhhttt 3y ago
Except Egyptians are/were more related to “white” Mediterranean Europeans than subsaharan Africans, at least in the lower Egypt. > didn’t believe that people of African descent Sounds like an absurd take considering how fascinated Europeans generally were with ancient Egyptian civilization in the 19th century...

ffhhttt 3y ago

> These early Christians ardently believed in such spirits, which they considered demons, I’m not arguing about the wide scale vandalism. But this bit seems almost entirely like conjecture and generally nonsensical given in Christianity that widespread belief in demons/witches/etc. was a late middle ages/reformation period development. It’s existence wasn’t really compatible with early Christian theology and worldview. Belief in demons and the supernatural (except the Christian god of course) was mainly a relict of paganism at that point e.g. pagan Romans were really into witchunts and the like (which is something the early church tried to crackdown with varying and in many cases not that great degree of success). From the Church’s perspective believing that demons can or exist was almost as bad as worshiping them.

angiosperm 3y ago
Maybe you don't recall Jesus evicting demons from pigs? The gospels that report the event are fiction penned between c. 80 - 120 AD, which first-millennium Christians believed implicitly. Medieval belief in demons absolutely relies on biblical authority. Witch hunts and delusions of Satan worship are a different phenomenon. Disbelief in demons is very, very recent, and still far from universal. Christianity (like Judaism) in no way demanded disbelief in spirits, but only primacy of YHVH over the rest. In any case, even a Christian priest who personally disbelieved in spirits occupying statuary would resent competition from pagan priests performing sacrifices. Making the statuary unserviceable was good for business, and being seen doing it with no divine retribution was good theater.

_a_a_a_ 3y ago

Can you give a couple of cites for this, I've never heard of it before and I'm curious, thanks

smiley1437 3y ago
One reason I've read is that people (graverobbers?) were superstitious and afraid of statues, and breaking the nose off meant it couldn't 'breathe' and thus had no more life force: https://suzannelovellinc.com/blog/where-did-egyptian-statues-broken-noses-go/ https://suzannelovellinc.com/blog/where-did-egyptian-statues...
angiosperm 3y ago
https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2022/05/iconoclasm-of-the-vanities-why-we-are-destroying-statues/ https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2022/05/iconoclasm-of-the... https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/28/the-darkening-age-the-christian-destruction-of-the-classical-world-by-catherine-nixey https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/28/the-darkening-... [Note: this article accepts as factual late-Christian exaggerations of Roman persecution.] https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-egyptian-statues-broken-noses https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-egyptian-statu... [Note: this article confuses details about worship of Amun.]
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  None of your links are to actual scholarship on Christian treatment of pagan infrastructure. If a person asks for a citation about a historical claim, it’s polite to point to something from a university press, instead of mere popular-journalism articles which are hardly more trustworthy than an HN comment.
  - angiosperm 3y ago
    Scholars know how to do their own searches. Popular articles are more accessible to the people who need the help.