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If you didn't have that attitude you could have learned that stuff in the last 6 months and then you wouldnt have to worry about it. Also, "power user friendly

If you didn't have that attitude you could have learned that stuff in the last 6 months and then you wouldnt have to worry about it. Also, "power user friendly" but hates CLI..... I see. You might have to hand in your power user card over that one I am a diehard windows user but the OS's affinity for burying settings in nested, labyrinthine setting dialogs gets old super fast.

short_throw 3y ago
"You could have learned that stuff in the last 6 months" "You might have to hand in your power user card over that one" And these attitudes are why most consumers almost exclusively use proprietary software. You have to let people be lazy to get mass adoption. Businesses know and exploit this, the foss world writes tools with steep learning curves and says "take it or leave it." And that's perfectly fine as long as we can be honest with ourselves: the vast majority of people will never invest the time to learn to use cmd line applications, or debug wifi drivers, or learn to use an environment that's more complicated than what they already have. Time is money so even a highly motivated person should question spending months to learn new tools. I love Linux for being superior for servers and hackable and having so much powerful software available for free...but if I weren't a software developer and I didn't enjoy this stuff there'd be no justification for the time I spent learning it.
- pdntspa 3y ago
  And when you look around you and realize that everything sucks, now you know why. Enshittification is real. Knowledge is the antidote...
skeaker 3y ago
> If you didn't have that attitude you could have learned that stuff in the last 6 months and then you wouldnt have to worry about it. The issue is that this has to scale to everyone if the goal here is mass adoption (meaning your family, maybe including your grandma, running Linux). If someone says "I don't have 6 months to learn this" or "I couldn't learn this even with 6 months to do so" and your goal is mass adoption, your action should be resolving whatever the roadblock is, not blaming the individual with the issue.
Workaccount2 3y ago
This comment perfectly sums up why linux is perpetually stuck with close to zero adoption. "It's not linux that's the problem, it's you!"
- pdntspa 3y ago
  Yeah, forgive me for thinking that people need to meet the computer halfway. I keep forgetting that most are too stupid that they cannot be trusted to make effective use of such powerful machines.
  - wwtrv 3y ago
    > forgive me for thinking that people need to meet the computer halfway Seems like a very defeatist attitude to have..
    - pdntspa 3y ago
      Defeatist? How? We don't just put anyone in a vehicle, they have to have a license. That's a bit much for a computer but what is wrong with having to learn?
      - wwtrv 3y ago
        > what is wrong with having to learn? Often that just seems like an argument used to justify poor UX. There is nothing wrong with learning but many people have other interests and/or prefer/have to spend their effort on learning other things. Outright dismissing them as "too stupid" seems a bit elitist especially if you want them to user your software.
iraqmtpizza 3y ago
linux bros think CLI is required for everything but they don't realize that it's only required for everything in linux
- pdntspa 3y ago
  yeah because clicking through half a dozen nested dialogs to change my DNS settings is good fucking design Or even better, for many things the option doesn't exist any more? Why? Because fuck you thats why! I just LOVE watching Windows take away features because some normie asshole decided options were bad for usability and testing. Typing this on my Windows daily driver, btw. And I have to drop into CLI on a pretty regular basis.
  - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
    Tree structures are terrible design, yes. They shouldn't teach trees in computer science. Everything should be flat. Just like the Earth. I love watching Linux stay stuck on design choices from 1970 because to change the interface now would cause the operating system to implode and the resulting riot would exceed even the asspain over systemd
    - pdntspa 3y ago
      Some of those design choices are pretty good, they stick around for good reason. Everything is a file/chaining together tiny commands/text-based configuration files are computing zen for a large portion of users. A lot of text config now has way more documentation -- right there above the freaking setting! -- than a Windows design analogy could ever cram into (never-used) help files. The majority of config I deal with is like 25 lines of comments for every 1 line of setting. Systemd's not that bad either, I will take writing systemd config files over trying to make a service daemon in init.d scripts any day of the week.
      - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
        So what happens if you accidentally delete the comment in the text config? There's a parser that generates an error and recovers from there? Or it's just gone? LOL. Do you know how annoying it is to have to go into etc/netbeans.conf, scroll all the way down, then find the JDK path from somewhere else and paste it in the quotes after netbeans_jdkhome= just to get Netbeans to run? That's not computing zen! It's the reason nobody uses Netbeans -- old, bad design. The more people use your help files, the more you know your program sucks. This is not disputable. This is why Linux requires a literal support group called LUG.

short_throw 3y ago

"You could have learned that stuff in the last 6 months" "You might have to hand in your power user card over that one" And these attitudes are why most consumers almost exclusively use proprietary software. You have to let people be lazy to get mass adoption. Businesses know and exploit this, the foss world writes tools with steep learning curves and says "take it or leave it." And that's perfectly fine as long as we can be honest with ourselves: the vast majority of people will never invest the time to learn to use cmd line applications, or debug wifi drivers, or learn to use an environment that's more complicated than what they already have. Time is money so even a highly motivated person should question spending months to learn new tools. I love Linux for being superior for servers and hackable and having so much powerful software available for free...but if I weren't a software developer and I didn't enjoy this stuff there'd be no justification for the time I spent learning it.

pdntspa 3y ago
And when you look around you and realize that everything sucks, now you know why. Enshittification is real. Knowledge is the antidote...

skeaker 3y ago

> If you didn't have that attitude you could have learned that stuff in the last 6 months and then you wouldnt have to worry about it. The issue is that this has to scale to everyone if the goal here is mass adoption (meaning your family, maybe including your grandma, running Linux). If someone says "I don't have 6 months to learn this" or "I couldn't learn this even with 6 months to do so" and your goal is mass adoption, your action should be resolving whatever the roadblock is, not blaming the individual with the issue.

Workaccount2 3y ago

This comment perfectly sums up why linux is perpetually stuck with close to zero adoption. "It's not linux that's the problem, it's you!"

pdntspa 3y ago
Yeah, forgive me for thinking that people need to meet the computer halfway. I keep forgetting that most are too stupid that they cannot be trusted to make effective use of such powerful machines.
- wwtrv 3y ago
  > forgive me for thinking that people need to meet the computer halfway Seems like a very defeatist attitude to have..
  - pdntspa 3y ago
    Defeatist? How? We don't just put anyone in a vehicle, they have to have a license. That's a bit much for a computer but what is wrong with having to learn?
    - wwtrv 3y ago
      > what is wrong with having to learn? Often that just seems like an argument used to justify poor UX. There is nothing wrong with learning but many people have other interests and/or prefer/have to spend their effort on learning other things. Outright dismissing them as "too stupid" seems a bit elitist especially if you want them to user your software.

iraqmtpizza 3y ago

linux bros think CLI is required for everything but they don't realize that it's only required for everything in linux

pdntspa 3y ago
yeah because clicking through half a dozen nested dialogs to change my DNS settings is good fucking design Or even better, for many things the option doesn't exist any more? Why? Because fuck you thats why! I just LOVE watching Windows take away features because some normie asshole decided options were bad for usability and testing. Typing this on my Windows daily driver, btw. And I have to drop into CLI on a pretty regular basis.
- iraqmtpizza 3y ago
  Tree structures are terrible design, yes. They shouldn't teach trees in computer science. Everything should be flat. Just like the Earth. I love watching Linux stay stuck on design choices from 1970 because to change the interface now would cause the operating system to implode and the resulting riot would exceed even the asspain over systemd
  - pdntspa 3y ago
    Some of those design choices are pretty good, they stick around for good reason. Everything is a file/chaining together tiny commands/text-based configuration files are computing zen for a large portion of users. A lot of text config now has way more documentation -- right there above the freaking setting! -- than a Windows design analogy could ever cram into (never-used) help files. The majority of config I deal with is like 25 lines of comments for every 1 line of setting. Systemd's not that bad either, I will take writing systemd config files over trying to make a service daemon in init.d scripts any day of the week.
    - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
      So what happens if you accidentally delete the comment in the text config? There's a parser that generates an error and recovers from there? Or it's just gone? LOL. Do you know how annoying it is to have to go into etc/netbeans.conf, scroll all the way down, then find the JDK path from somewhere else and paste it in the quotes after netbeans_jdkhome= just to get Netbeans to run? That's not computing zen! It's the reason nobody uses Netbeans -- old, bad design. The more people use your help files, the more you know your program sucks. This is not disputable. This is why Linux requires a literal support group called LUG.