4 ms·

> I have a feeling this is just another way to get cheap labour. You make it sound like it’s a Bad Thing (TM). The apprentices that sign up for this gain real

by ayewo 3y ago

> I have a feeling this is just another way to get cheap labour. You make it sound like it’s a Bad Thing (TM). The apprentices that sign up for this gain real world experience that’s hard to come by locally and get paid for it. This kind of extended apprenticeship is valuable as they can go on to land remote jobs that pay them better than their local market. Perhaps they could have worded that more clearly as: “we recruit devs . . . from low-income countries with English as their official language” This is how they are able to make the economics work. EDIT: https://www.pullrequest.com/ https://www.pullrequest.com/ is a comparable service (where you involve “outsiders” with your codebase) except they use senior devs rather than junior devs. Of course senior devs are more farther along in their careers so it is clear you are paying for their experience.

confidantlake 3y ago
This is a bad thing for devs in much of the world. It is trying to replace them with cheaper overseas ones.
- ayewo 3y ago
  People have been saying this about outsourcing for nearly 2 decades now. Particularly after the publication of The World is Flat [1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Is_Flat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Is_Flat
- falcor84 3y ago
  I suppose you're technically correct about this being a "bad thing" for us personally in the short term. But why should there be a moat? If devs elsewhere can indeed do the same quality of work, why should our salaries be kept artificially high? Stretching this to the limit, it would be a "good thing" for me if there was a law saying that I specifically should be paid more than all others of equal skill, but (even if I could somehow lobby to legislate that) I think I would prefer to compete on my own merits rather than artificial limitations.
  - varispeed 3y ago
    > why should our salaries be kept artificially high? Because why would anyone in the west invest in education if employers are going to look for talent overseas where it is relatively cheap? Take on that student debt only to find you'll have poor chance repaying it, because the available jobs won't provide for the living you were looking for. This is essentially "dumping".
    - falcor84 3y ago
      School prices in the West have made no sense in decades. If I can learn equally well in the East and have access to the same job prospects (and that's the question), why not sign up for their programs?
      - varispeed 3y ago
        Because with the things going that way you won't be able to make a good living should you decide to return home and for many people that would sound like a bad investment anyway.
varispeed 3y ago
> The apprentices that sign up for this gain real world experience that’s hard to come by locally and get paid for it. It has a great potential for widening the social divide. Here in the UK it is illegal to hire an apprentice without at least paying them a minimum wage. The reason is that before the change, the apprenticeships were snapped up by people from wealthy background who could afford to work for "experience" or "exposure". This created a bubble, where at certain jobs you wouldn't see anyone from disadvantaged background working there, because those people had to take on jobs that weren't aligned with their interests, simply because they were poor and couldn't afford an apprenticeship. Now, the minimum wage thing is still not ideal, because in certain areas that's not enough, especially where you have a large family to support, but it is better than nothing.
comprev 3y ago
I've seen evidence of this exploitation first hand by a friend in Ghana. A UK based, official Google Cloud partner was offering him £2.50 per hour gross for a DevOps position. Yes, £2.50. I didn't believe it until he forwarded me their official offer letter.
- msm_ 3y ago
  How is this exploitation? Did anyone force him to sign this contract? I'm from a rather poor country, and when I was starting in my career I would absolutely love to earn $10/hour. In fact that would be a dream salary for me. $2.5 is not great, but it's about what I earned in my first job (and my country may not be rich, but it's still way richer than Ghana). So I'm not sure what's wrong with that. Can our friend earn more locally? Great, they should reject the offer.

by ayewo 3y ago

confidantlake 3y ago

This is a bad thing for devs in much of the world. It is trying to replace them with cheaper overseas ones.

ayewo 3y ago
People have been saying this about outsourcing for nearly 2 decades now. Particularly after the publication of The World is Flat [1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Is_Flat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Is_Flat
falcor84 3y ago
I suppose you're technically correct about this being a "bad thing" for us personally in the short term. But why should there be a moat? If devs elsewhere can indeed do the same quality of work, why should our salaries be kept artificially high? Stretching this to the limit, it would be a "good thing" for me if there was a law saying that I specifically should be paid more than all others of equal skill, but (even if I could somehow lobby to legislate that) I think I would prefer to compete on my own merits rather than artificial limitations.
- varispeed 3y ago
  > why should our salaries be kept artificially high? Because why would anyone in the west invest in education if employers are going to look for talent overseas where it is relatively cheap? Take on that student debt only to find you'll have poor chance repaying it, because the available jobs won't provide for the living you were looking for. This is essentially "dumping".
  - falcor84 3y ago
    School prices in the West have made no sense in decades. If I can learn equally well in the East and have access to the same job prospects (and that's the question), why not sign up for their programs?
    - varispeed 3y ago
      Because with the things going that way you won't be able to make a good living should you decide to return home and for many people that would sound like a bad investment anyway.

varispeed 3y ago

> The apprentices that sign up for this gain real world experience that’s hard to come by locally and get paid for it. It has a great potential for widening the social divide. Here in the UK it is illegal to hire an apprentice without at least paying them a minimum wage. The reason is that before the change, the apprenticeships were snapped up by people from wealthy background who could afford to work for "experience" or "exposure". This created a bubble, where at certain jobs you wouldn't see anyone from disadvantaged background working there, because those people had to take on jobs that weren't aligned with their interests, simply because they were poor and couldn't afford an apprenticeship. Now, the minimum wage thing is still not ideal, because in certain areas that's not enough, especially where you have a large family to support, but it is better than nothing.

comprev 3y ago

I've seen evidence of this exploitation first hand by a friend in Ghana. A UK based, official Google Cloud partner was offering him £2.50 per hour gross for a DevOps position. Yes, £2.50. I didn't believe it until he forwarded me their official offer letter.

msm_ 3y ago
How is this exploitation? Did anyone force him to sign this contract? I'm from a rather poor country, and when I was starting in my career I would absolutely love to earn $10/hour. In fact that would be a dream salary for me. $2.5 is not great, but it's about what I earned in my first job (and my country may not be rich, but it's still way richer than Ghana). So I'm not sure what's wrong with that. Can our friend earn more locally? Great, they should reject the offer.