6 ms·

> How can engineers working on this even look at themselves without being ashamed? These aren't engineering decisions but marketing ones. The role of an engine

> How can engineers working on this even look at themselves without being ashamed? These aren't engineering decisions but marketing ones. The role of an engineer is to engineer a solution, not make business decisions. The decision to turn telemetry on by default was not taken by an engineer, so engineers at intel shouldn't feel ashamed of anything at first place.

freedude 3y ago
> The decision to turn telemetry on by default was not taken by an engineer, so engineers at intel shouldn't feel ashamed of anything at first place. And this lack of accountability is exactly why our world is the way it is. Just remember anyone can justify evil behavior if they try hard enough. Why? because people are not basically good by nature. They are basically evil by nature. Observe any 2-3 year old throwing a fit and you might begin to grasp the concept.
- throw_m239339 3y ago
  > And this lack of accountability is exactly why our world is the way it is. Just remember anyone can justify evil behavior if they try hard enough. Why? because people are not basically good by nature. They are basically evil by nature. Observe any 2-3 year old throwing a fit and you might begin to grasp the concept. There is no "lack of accountability" anywhere in that story. Nothing done here was illegal, nor "evil" which is an unnecessary hyperbole.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I don't agree with the perspective that if there's no law against doing a thing, that makes it OK to do the thing.
  - pixxel 3y ago
    All you’re doing here is revealing your lack of ethics with regard to this topic.
    - throw_m239339 3y ago
      > All you’re doing here is revealing your lack of ethics with regard to this topic. No argument, resorts to personal attacks.
  - danaris 3y ago
    Sure there is. The fact that nothing here was illegal, but is objectively harmful, is the lack of accountability.
JohnFen 3y ago
> The decision to turn telemetry on by default was not taken by an engineer, so engineers at intel shouldn't feel ashamed of anything at first place. Yes, they should, because it's those engineers that are implementing the decision. It doesn't matter even a little whether or not they were one of the decisionmakers. The engineers implementing things like this should be deeply ashamed.
mrguyorama 3y ago
The guards at Auschwitz were not there to make business decisions for the country as a whole, just there to guard the camp, so they didn't have to feel bad about the human ash landing on their clothes every day.
- throw_m239339 3y ago
  > The guards at Auschwitz were not there to make business decisions for the country as a whole, just there to guard the camp, so they didn't have to feel bad about the human ash landing on their clothes every day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law No need to say that how easy it is to brush off that kind of argumentation for the fallacy it is.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    Godwin's law does not mean that any comparison involving Nazis is automatically a fallacy. In this case, it was a relevant comparison. Court cases involving former concentration camp staff have established that "I just work here" is not a particularly strong defense. If your work enables harmful actions, and if you are aware of it, you may be found responsible for the consequences. Even if you don't participate directly in it. Even if you could face adverse consequences (including death) for refusing to do your job. And even if someone else would likely just take your place.
    - throw_m239339 3y ago
      > In this case, it was a relevant comparison. Court cases involving former concentration camp staff have established that "I just work here" is not a particularly strong defense. If your work enables harmful actions, and if you are aware of it, you may be found responsible for the consequences. Even if you don't participate directly in it. Even if you could face adverse consequences (including death) for refusing to do your job. And even if someone else would likely just take your place. No it wasn't a relevant comparison, no genocide is happening because someone turned on telemetry by default, this is completely unhinged. If you're so outraged by all this then you should give these engineers alternative opportunities of work that don't involve telemetry. Can you do that?

freedude 3y ago

> The decision to turn telemetry on by default was not taken by an engineer, so engineers at intel shouldn't feel ashamed of anything at first place. And this lack of accountability is exactly why our world is the way it is. Just remember anyone can justify evil behavior if they try hard enough. Why? because people are not basically good by nature. They are basically evil by nature. Observe any 2-3 year old throwing a fit and you might begin to grasp the concept.

throw_m239339 3y ago
> And this lack of accountability is exactly why our world is the way it is. Just remember anyone can justify evil behavior if they try hard enough. Why? because people are not basically good by nature. They are basically evil by nature. Observe any 2-3 year old throwing a fit and you might begin to grasp the concept. There is no "lack of accountability" anywhere in that story. Nothing done here was illegal, nor "evil" which is an unnecessary hyperbole.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I don't agree with the perspective that if there's no law against doing a thing, that makes it OK to do the thing.
- pixxel 3y ago
  All you’re doing here is revealing your lack of ethics with regard to this topic.
  - throw_m239339 3y ago
    > All you’re doing here is revealing your lack of ethics with regard to this topic. No argument, resorts to personal attacks.
- danaris 3y ago
  Sure there is. The fact that nothing here was illegal, but is objectively harmful, is the lack of accountability.

JohnFen 3y ago

> The decision to turn telemetry on by default was not taken by an engineer, so engineers at intel shouldn't feel ashamed of anything at first place. Yes, they should, because it's those engineers that are implementing the decision. It doesn't matter even a little whether or not they were one of the decisionmakers. The engineers implementing things like this should be deeply ashamed.

mrguyorama 3y ago

The guards at Auschwitz were not there to make business decisions for the country as a whole, just there to guard the camp, so they didn't have to feel bad about the human ash landing on their clothes every day.

throw_m239339 3y ago
> The guards at Auschwitz were not there to make business decisions for the country as a whole, just there to guard the camp, so they didn't have to feel bad about the human ash landing on their clothes every day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law No need to say that how easy it is to brush off that kind of argumentation for the fallacy it is.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  Godwin's law does not mean that any comparison involving Nazis is automatically a fallacy. In this case, it was a relevant comparison. Court cases involving former concentration camp staff have established that "I just work here" is not a particularly strong defense. If your work enables harmful actions, and if you are aware of it, you may be found responsible for the consequences. Even if you don't participate directly in it. Even if you could face adverse consequences (including death) for refusing to do your job. And even if someone else would likely just take your place.
  - throw_m239339 3y ago
    > In this case, it was a relevant comparison. Court cases involving former concentration camp staff have established that "I just work here" is not a particularly strong defense. If your work enables harmful actions, and if you are aware of it, you may be found responsible for the consequences. Even if you don't participate directly in it. Even if you could face adverse consequences (including death) for refusing to do your job. And even if someone else would likely just take your place. No it wasn't a relevant comparison, no genocide is happening because someone turned on telemetry by default, this is completely unhinged. If you're so outraged by all this then you should give these engineers alternative opportunities of work that don't involve telemetry. Can you do that?