3 ms·

I'm confused how you can make such a statement, are you a professional pianist? How much force you need can vary by individual instrument, and with the proper t

I'm confused how you can make such a statement, are you a professional pianist? How much force you need can vary by individual instrument, and with the proper technique and assisted by gravity everything seems much easier on a grand to me.

seabass-labrax 3y ago
A typical grand piano action works against gravity: the hammers are underneath the strings and are propelled upwards by a series of levers connected to the keys. On an upright, however, each hammer is balanced upright and needs only be propelled sideways. Therefore, it's harder work physically to play a grand piano than an upright; this is compensated by a higher maximum volume with a concert grand because of how much larger the resonator is. A baby grand isn't to be much louder (if louder at all) than an a full-size upright, but might still have less sympathetic vibration if the strings don't cross as much as they would on an upright. However, sympathetic vibration isn't necessarily undesirable; I'm convinced that the the opening bars of Schubert's Wanderer fantasy (D. 760) was composed deliberately to emphasise the effect. Modern concert grands almost universally have the double-escapement action, which allows notes to be played very rapidly. That said, you only get the advantage of the massive leverage when starting from a state where the key is completely released, so all subsequent notes take a lot more force to be made at the same volume as the first. There are some uprights with double-escapement, but the are plenty that don't have it either... a 3/4-size 'spinet' a hundred years old is unlikely to possess such a refined mechanism (along with missing loads of strings, to add insult to injury).
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Piano keys are weighted, this is to standardize as much as possible the downward force required to produce a sound. The lower keys are typically weighted heavier. You can have light grands and heavy uprights, it all depends on regulation and construction details but typically not all that much on the hammers, though the big factor is that the gravity assist allows for faster repetitation (as well as the double escapement, but that is because it can catch the key closer to the string so the next (and further) stroke requires far less movement and time). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq2pb1u0HIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq2pb1u0HIE
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    I don't understand what you mean by the possibility of making a 'light grand'. Surely no amount of weighting can get around the fact that it is harder to lift a object up against gravity than it is to move it sideways, all else being equal. As such, I would expect a grand to require more force than an upright of comparable quality and leverage. Please could you elaborate on this? The latter half of your comment I would agree with entirely; I would enumerate the factors like this: 1. The hammer falls down to its resting position with grands. This allows it to return to its resting position faster, at the expense of greater force required to move the hammer. 2. The double-escapement action of grands allows the hammers to strike again without the key having been fully released. This increases the maximum rate at which the same note can be played in succession, but again at the expense of greater force required because of the lack of leverage when not using the whole distance of the action. 3. Double-escapement mechanisms can be found on uprights, but these are different from the traditional grand action and are exceedingly rare. (From a cursory search online, the only such upright I can find currently for sale is the Bechstein Concert 8.)
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      At the back of the keys in a piano (and in a grand) there are lead weights that determine how much will be added to the weight of the hammer. These are usually recessed in a hole in the side of the key. Typically you'll be around 50 grams, no matter whether upright or grand. But the action is substantially different in construction and that can have all kinds of effects on key response once it is moving. You can test this for yourself with some reference weights. A '60' would be on the heavy side, a 40 or even lower would feel very light. Black keys tend to be a bit lighter (and are differently positioned on the cantilever) due to their shorter length of travel so it all works out roughly the same in the end. Treble keys tend to be weighted slightly lighter than bass keys. I don't have an action in pieces right now so I can't make a picture of what the side of a key looks like, but I'll see if I can't find one online.
      - seabass-labrax 3y ago
        Thank you for explaining. So what I think you are saying is that you can make a grand feel as light as a typical upright because the weights typically added to pianos outweigh the inherent weight of the hammers that the grand would add to the action, giving plenty of leeway to adjust the action.

seabass-labrax 3y ago

A typical grand piano action works against gravity: the hammers are underneath the strings and are propelled upwards by a series of levers connected to the keys. On an upright, however, each hammer is balanced upright and needs only be propelled sideways. Therefore, it's harder work physically to play a grand piano than an upright; this is compensated by a higher maximum volume with a concert grand because of how much larger the resonator is. A baby grand isn't to be much louder (if louder at all) than an a full-size upright, but might still have less sympathetic vibration if the strings don't cross as much as they would on an upright. However, sympathetic vibration isn't necessarily undesirable; I'm convinced that the the opening bars of Schubert's Wanderer fantasy (D. 760) was composed deliberately to emphasise the effect. Modern concert grands almost universally have the double-escapement action, which allows notes to be played very rapidly. That said, you only get the advantage of the massive leverage when starting from a state where the key is completely released, so all subsequent notes take a lot more force to be made at the same volume as the first. There are some uprights with double-escapement, but the are plenty that don't have it either... a 3/4-size 'spinet' a hundred years old is unlikely to possess such a refined mechanism (along with missing loads of strings, to add insult to injury).

jacquesm 3y ago
Piano keys are weighted, this is to standardize as much as possible the downward force required to produce a sound. The lower keys are typically weighted heavier. You can have light grands and heavy uprights, it all depends on regulation and construction details but typically not all that much on the hammers, though the big factor is that the gravity assist allows for faster repetitation (as well as the double escapement, but that is because it can catch the key closer to the string so the next (and further) stroke requires far less movement and time). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq2pb1u0HIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq2pb1u0HIE
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  I don't understand what you mean by the possibility of making a 'light grand'. Surely no amount of weighting can get around the fact that it is harder to lift a object up against gravity than it is to move it sideways, all else being equal. As such, I would expect a grand to require more force than an upright of comparable quality and leverage. Please could you elaborate on this? The latter half of your comment I would agree with entirely; I would enumerate the factors like this: 1. The hammer falls down to its resting position with grands. This allows it to return to its resting position faster, at the expense of greater force required to move the hammer. 2. The double-escapement action of grands allows the hammers to strike again without the key having been fully released. This increases the maximum rate at which the same note can be played in succession, but again at the expense of greater force required because of the lack of leverage when not using the whole distance of the action. 3. Double-escapement mechanisms can be found on uprights, but these are different from the traditional grand action and are exceedingly rare. (From a cursory search online, the only such upright I can find currently for sale is the Bechstein Concert 8.)
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    At the back of the keys in a piano (and in a grand) there are lead weights that determine how much will be added to the weight of the hammer. These are usually recessed in a hole in the side of the key. Typically you'll be around 50 grams, no matter whether upright or grand. But the action is substantially different in construction and that can have all kinds of effects on key response once it is moving. You can test this for yourself with some reference weights. A '60' would be on the heavy side, a 40 or even lower would feel very light. Black keys tend to be a bit lighter (and are differently positioned on the cantilever) due to their shorter length of travel so it all works out roughly the same in the end. Treble keys tend to be weighted slightly lighter than bass keys. I don't have an action in pieces right now so I can't make a picture of what the side of a key looks like, but I'll see if I can't find one online.
    - seabass-labrax 3y ago
      Thank you for explaining. So what I think you are saying is that you can make a grand feel as light as a typical upright because the weights typically added to pianos outweigh the inherent weight of the hammers that the grand would add to the action, giving plenty of leeway to adjust the action.