5 ms·

Peole forget that millions of people submit data to Google Maps for free. I placed all the local postboxes on google maps, people sibmit information about their

Peole forget that millions of people submit data to Google Maps for free. I placed all the local postboxes on google maps, people sibmit information about their businesss, opening hours, etc. This is hugely valuable. Also google grew laxy. Not tskes them a year to add a royal mail postbox

aembleton 3y ago
Worth adding that information to open street maps so that it available for other maps too.
- Fnoord 3y ago
  For sure, but for many people there's only Google Maps, and maybe Apple Maps. On the short term, catering to Google Maps makes sense. They'd add to another project if it were to be popular enough, and the network effect keeps Google Maps popular. Hence they get away with enshittification.
  - atlintots 3y ago
    That's just another reason why it's worth adding that information to open street maps, if you are able to.
  - throwaway9621 3y ago
    >They'd add to another project if it were to be popular enough, and the network effect keeps Google Maps popular. Hence they get away with enshittification. Ah yes, the chicken and egg logic of network effect excuses all. How about if people, idk, just evangelized more about the things they love to be smug about on HN? People should be shamed off enshittified platforms. Be "that guy" - or be a hypocrite. For Google it might a little more complicated, but for each one of us it's exactly this simple.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- yankput 3y ago
  Compare the experience of adding stuff to OSM and to Google Maps. Much easier. OSM is for nerds. Very hard to add even basic info. Google Maps it’s trivial. Same as uploading photo to Google Maps is easier than adding it to WikiMedia Commons. Such is life. (Ironically one of the biggest sources of photos is commons is Panoramio; before Google merged it with Google Maps, the photos there defaulted to Creative Commons.)
  - aembleton 3y ago
    How do I update stuff in Google Maps? For OSM, its a case of opening Street Complete and tapping on things. To add new features I have to use SCEE, which is more nerdy mainly because it involves using FDroid to install it. But I've no idea how to add, say a park bench to Google Maps.
    - verteu 3y ago
      Just tried it now and I found the experience incredibly easy: On desktop, right click on the map and choose "Add a missing place." On mobile, long-press to drop a pin, then scroll down to "Add a missing place." Does OSM require installing a parallel app store to add a park bench? Sounds like a UX-killer :/
      - aembleton 3y ago
        Just tried it on mobile and that is nice and easy, especially if you want to add a business. Not sure how you add a bench that way as I couldn't see the option, but I might be looking in the wrong place. You're right though, installing another app store is a non starter.
        verteu 3y ago
        Good point -- I'm not sure if Google Maps tracks benches. (I'd guess it doesn't, but not positive.)
- datavirtue 3y ago
  OSM should be scraping Google maps.
  - xp84 3y ago
    Legally how?
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    OSM has a two-way data sharing agreements directly with (among others) Apple and Bing/Microsoft. Additionally, the "Overture Foundation" with members including AWS/Amazon, Microsoft, Meta, and TomTom have a complicated indirect two-way data sharing agreement with OSM. (Overture Maps are a "curated" subset of OSM data and members are encouraged but not required to make contributions and updates to the maps directly upstream to OSM.) Google probably sees their data as a moat and likely aren't interested in two-way data sharing. (Given how many of their competitors are now involved directly or indirectly with OSM or Overture, they may be correct.) OSM probably can't legally scrape it without an agreement in place.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Also, everybody by default shares their location when using it, no? So they get live feedback on traffic relatively for free (till some lawsuit will ban it). I can see it often changing and recalculating as I drive, albeit with some lag. I don't think you can estimate overall worth of Maps to Google directly and easily. Its still #1 driving solution I use, its not perfect in dense traffic in cities but otherwise OK and for free, plus their estimates are pretty accurate.
- wredue 3y ago
  iPhone and android phones share your location with apple and google constantly regardless of if you’re in maps or not. Google does not need maps to have traffic data.
runeks 3y ago
Agreed. And not just that, but also the fact that people use Google Maps for car navigation means Google can derive the location of traffic jams by comparing current speed with the speed limit. This is hugely useful for navigation since it means these bottlenecks can be avoided, some thing which is not possible unless this data is available.
- stiray 3y ago
  If I present you the other side of the coin - we are a small country, where we cant keep up with number of cars of tourists traveling to the next country over summer. Since the Google Maps is here, not only we have a completely congested highways but also all other roads that were free of tourists before are now blocked. Tourists that are traveling to the next country while their number has doubled as they dont stand in line from border to border but rather destroy any viable traffic for locals. In some locations it has gone to the point where small villages with historically very narrow roads are literally blocked by **** (pardon my french), using google maps and see that there is a pass (while every road is the same, right) so the police needs to deter tourists to even head there. Wont even go into suffering of locals there.
  - aikinai 3y ago
    This is a real issue, but it has nothing to do with Google specifically. You’re basically saying that information on road networks should be obscured or restricted so governments can indirectly control the flow of traffic. Japan actually has some soft regulations in this space about routing and road visibility (e.g. residential roads are hidden when you’re on thoroughfares). But they’re just suggestions so only domestic companies follow them and Google, Apple, etc still provide their usual global algorithms. Maybe there’s a good solution to this, but I don’t think it’s getting rid of mapping services and going back to security through obscurity.
    - stiray 3y ago
      No, I am saying that by diverting drivers to regional roads without taking into account local population, this is directly Google fault. Why? Before Google started messing with information about congestion, there was no issue. Regional roads swallowed without any problem those few adventurous tourists that decided to use them. Now you find an average Joe everywhere. Wanna se another interesting example (use google translate), here are statistics of our volunteer based and taxes paid (for everyone in need, even tourists, including helicopter transport) mountain rescue service: https://www.grzs.si/resevanje/statistika-nesrec/ https://www.grzs.si/resevanje/statistika-nesrec/ Check number of accidents since 2006 (google maps came out 2005) and constant rise to 2023 (more than twice the number of interventions). Freaking maps are showing the steepest mountain roads (Alps are not a joke), to parts without phone signal. Google gets you just far enough to get you into troubles, potentially fatal troubles.

aembleton 3y ago

Worth adding that information to open street maps so that it available for other maps too.

Fnoord 3y ago
For sure, but for many people there's only Google Maps, and maybe Apple Maps. On the short term, catering to Google Maps makes sense. They'd add to another project if it were to be popular enough, and the network effect keeps Google Maps popular. Hence they get away with enshittification.
- atlintots 3y ago
  That's just another reason why it's worth adding that information to open street maps, if you are able to.
- throwaway9621 3y ago
  >They'd add to another project if it were to be popular enough, and the network effect keeps Google Maps popular. Hence they get away with enshittification. Ah yes, the chicken and egg logic of network effect excuses all. How about if people, idk, just evangelized more about the things they love to be smug about on HN? People should be shamed off enshittified platforms. Be "that guy" - or be a hypocrite. For Google it might a little more complicated, but for each one of us it's exactly this simple.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
yankput 3y ago
Compare the experience of adding stuff to OSM and to Google Maps. Much easier. OSM is for nerds. Very hard to add even basic info. Google Maps it’s trivial. Same as uploading photo to Google Maps is easier than adding it to WikiMedia Commons. Such is life. (Ironically one of the biggest sources of photos is commons is Panoramio; before Google merged it with Google Maps, the photos there defaulted to Creative Commons.)
- aembleton 3y ago
  How do I update stuff in Google Maps? For OSM, its a case of opening Street Complete and tapping on things. To add new features I have to use SCEE, which is more nerdy mainly because it involves using FDroid to install it. But I've no idea how to add, say a park bench to Google Maps.
  - verteu 3y ago
    Just tried it now and I found the experience incredibly easy: On desktop, right click on the map and choose "Add a missing place." On mobile, long-press to drop a pin, then scroll down to "Add a missing place." Does OSM require installing a parallel app store to add a park bench? Sounds like a UX-killer :/
    - aembleton 3y ago
      Just tried it on mobile and that is nice and easy, especially if you want to add a business. Not sure how you add a bench that way as I couldn't see the option, but I might be looking in the wrong place. You're right though, installing another app store is a non starter.
      - verteu 3y ago
        Good point -- I'm not sure if Google Maps tracks benches. (I'd guess it doesn't, but not positive.)
datavirtue 3y ago
OSM should be scraping Google maps.
- xp84 3y ago
  Legally how?
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  OSM has a two-way data sharing agreements directly with (among others) Apple and Bing/Microsoft. Additionally, the "Overture Foundation" with members including AWS/Amazon, Microsoft, Meta, and TomTom have a complicated indirect two-way data sharing agreement with OSM. (Overture Maps are a "curated" subset of OSM data and members are encouraged but not required to make contributions and updates to the maps directly upstream to OSM.) Google probably sees their data as a moat and likely aren't interested in two-way data sharing. (Given how many of their competitors are now involved directly or indirectly with OSM or Overture, they may be correct.) OSM probably can't legally scrape it without an agreement in place.

saiya-jin 3y ago

Also, everybody by default shares their location when using it, no? So they get live feedback on traffic relatively for free (till some lawsuit will ban it). I can see it often changing and recalculating as I drive, albeit with some lag. I don't think you can estimate overall worth of Maps to Google directly and easily. Its still #1 driving solution I use, its not perfect in dense traffic in cities but otherwise OK and for free, plus their estimates are pretty accurate.

wredue 3y ago
iPhone and android phones share your location with apple and google constantly regardless of if you’re in maps or not. Google does not need maps to have traffic data.

runeks 3y ago

Agreed. And not just that, but also the fact that people use Google Maps for car navigation means Google can derive the location of traffic jams by comparing current speed with the speed limit. This is hugely useful for navigation since it means these bottlenecks can be avoided, some thing which is not possible unless this data is available.

stiray 3y ago
If I present you the other side of the coin - we are a small country, where we cant keep up with number of cars of tourists traveling to the next country over summer. Since the Google Maps is here, not only we have a completely congested highways but also all other roads that were free of tourists before are now blocked. Tourists that are traveling to the next country while their number has doubled as they dont stand in line from border to border but rather destroy any viable traffic for locals. In some locations it has gone to the point where small villages with historically very narrow roads are literally blocked by **** (pardon my french), using google maps and see that there is a pass (while every road is the same, right) so the police needs to deter tourists to even head there. Wont even go into suffering of locals there.
- aikinai 3y ago
  This is a real issue, but it has nothing to do with Google specifically. You’re basically saying that information on road networks should be obscured or restricted so governments can indirectly control the flow of traffic. Japan actually has some soft regulations in this space about routing and road visibility (e.g. residential roads are hidden when you’re on thoroughfares). But they’re just suggestions so only domestic companies follow them and Google, Apple, etc still provide their usual global algorithms. Maybe there’s a good solution to this, but I don’t think it’s getting rid of mapping services and going back to security through obscurity.
  - stiray 3y ago
    No, I am saying that by diverting drivers to regional roads without taking into account local population, this is directly Google fault. Why? Before Google started messing with information about congestion, there was no issue. Regional roads swallowed without any problem those few adventurous tourists that decided to use them. Now you find an average Joe everywhere. Wanna se another interesting example (use google translate), here are statistics of our volunteer based and taxes paid (for everyone in need, even tourists, including helicopter transport) mountain rescue service: https://www.grzs.si/resevanje/statistika-nesrec/ https://www.grzs.si/resevanje/statistika-nesrec/ Check number of accidents since 2006 (google maps came out 2005) and constant rise to 2023 (more than twice the number of interventions). Freaking maps are showing the steepest mountain roads (Alps are not a joke), to parts without phone signal. Google gets you just far enough to get you into troubles, potentially fatal troubles.