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Two different people in this article are quoted (via the documentary) as being willing to kill themselves for the cause. Not just die in war, but actually kill

Two different people in this article are quoted (via the documentary) as being willing to kill themselves for the cause. Not just die in war, but actually kill themselves. Is this level of fanaticism compatible with modern military practice? Something I’ve learnt from following the war in Ukraine is that modern military practice has come a long way from WWII, Vietnam, and even later wars. Part of the reason Russia has mostly failed in their efforts is that they are an outdated military in terms of technology, leadership, structure, and doctrine. So where is China at? I understand technologically they’re improving all the time and really quite modern. I suspect this level of fanaticism though does not work with modern doctrine. It’s debatable if it even worked for the Japanese in WWII.

tibbydudeza 3y ago
Considering the rather hopeless frontal WW2 style Russian infantry assaults in Ukraine it seems there is enough suicidal or hopeless people to be found if you promise folks that their families will get some kind of financial reward with your death. This won't work if you live in one of the better Russian cities like Moscow or St Petersburg hence rural areas and prisons being mainly targeted for their mobiks.
localplume 3y ago
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fnordpiglet 3y ago
Who knows where China is at? They’ve no combat experience. Their entire military is green, from every single line soldier through their entire command structure. I would anticipate that their military has at the edges very capable equipment and technologies, but at its core is logistically incapable and unable to fight any meaningful combat when things get real. Their entire readiness is based on training exercises, which are neither real, nor do they exercise the entire military machine in a transparent way. It’s likely the Chinese military doesn’t know it’s own capability as fraud and telling leaders what they want to hear is almost certainly rampant. Chinese people also haven’t been exposed to thousands upon thousands of young men sent home in body bags since 1953, there aren’t many Chinese alive who have felt wars effects, which is a blessing for their people. Once the horrors touched every family in China, would they be quite as eager? But I would wager a battle hardened military composed of veterans like the US and allies who have been engaged in global conflicts continuously since 1953 would soundly defeat China in any conventional war, but with horrendous prices on both sides. (N.b., I’m not saying this is a “good thing,” it’s not - but it is true, and it is what wins wars). To wit, their global logistics are functional and proven, their troops hardened and disciplined in combat, their leaders experienced and capable, their equipment understood and tested in earnest, and their populace inured to the tragedy.
icegreentea2 3y ago
Yes, this level of 'fanaticism' (carefully controlled) is completely compatible with modern military practice. Perhaps the propaganda makes it come out differently, but this level of 'fanaticism' is functionally the same as willing to be dropped off next to a downed pilot completely surrounded in a city with hundreds of hostiles and no other exfil in sight. It's functionally the same thing as keeping flying to your weapons release point, knowing that anti air missiles are on the way, and you're going to get splashed shortly after you release your missiles unless you turn back right now, but the plan really needs you to fire off your rounds. It's functionally the same as being the one live pilot in the middle of a drone decoy swarm so that you can imbue the swarm with some reasonable smarts and realism despite the storm of jamming. The reality is that we ask soldiers, pilots and sailors to be ready to die all the same. The sharp and large distinction between being ready to die, and being ready to 'sacrifice themselves' I feel is really more of a distinction made to comfort those outside the military. It's difficult to extrapolate WW2 Japan to China today. Certainly their fanaticism didn't win them the war, but it's difficult to imagine what type of 'mindset' would have won them the war given the immense material disparity they faced. Though if you want to take the meta view that their fanaticism mindset that infected both the armed forces and the nation in general led to the overall choices that ended up in them starting their wars (which then went to shit for them)... I'd actually agree. It's certainly disheartening to see this type of propaganda appear from any country.

tibbydudeza 3y ago

Considering the rather hopeless frontal WW2 style Russian infantry assaults in Ukraine it seems there is enough suicidal or hopeless people to be found if you promise folks that their families will get some kind of financial reward with your death. This won't work if you live in one of the better Russian cities like Moscow or St Petersburg hence rural areas and prisons being mainly targeted for their mobiks.

localplume 3y ago

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fnordpiglet 3y ago

Who knows where China is at? They’ve no combat experience. Their entire military is green, from every single line soldier through their entire command structure. I would anticipate that their military has at the edges very capable equipment and technologies, but at its core is logistically incapable and unable to fight any meaningful combat when things get real. Their entire readiness is based on training exercises, which are neither real, nor do they exercise the entire military machine in a transparent way. It’s likely the Chinese military doesn’t know it’s own capability as fraud and telling leaders what they want to hear is almost certainly rampant. Chinese people also haven’t been exposed to thousands upon thousands of young men sent home in body bags since 1953, there aren’t many Chinese alive who have felt wars effects, which is a blessing for their people. Once the horrors touched every family in China, would they be quite as eager? But I would wager a battle hardened military composed of veterans like the US and allies who have been engaged in global conflicts continuously since 1953 would soundly defeat China in any conventional war, but with horrendous prices on both sides. (N.b., I’m not saying this is a “good thing,” it’s not - but it is true, and it is what wins wars). To wit, their global logistics are functional and proven, their troops hardened and disciplined in combat, their leaders experienced and capable, their equipment understood and tested in earnest, and their populace inured to the tragedy.

icegreentea2 3y ago

Yes, this level of 'fanaticism' (carefully controlled) is completely compatible with modern military practice. Perhaps the propaganda makes it come out differently, but this level of 'fanaticism' is functionally the same as willing to be dropped off next to a downed pilot completely surrounded in a city with hundreds of hostiles and no other exfil in sight. It's functionally the same thing as keeping flying to your weapons release point, knowing that anti air missiles are on the way, and you're going to get splashed shortly after you release your missiles unless you turn back right now, but the plan really needs you to fire off your rounds. It's functionally the same as being the one live pilot in the middle of a drone decoy swarm so that you can imbue the swarm with some reasonable smarts and realism despite the storm of jamming. The reality is that we ask soldiers, pilots and sailors to be ready to die all the same. The sharp and large distinction between being ready to die, and being ready to 'sacrifice themselves' I feel is really more of a distinction made to comfort those outside the military. It's difficult to extrapolate WW2 Japan to China today. Certainly their fanaticism didn't win them the war, but it's difficult to imagine what type of 'mindset' would have won them the war given the immense material disparity they faced. Though if you want to take the meta view that their fanaticism mindset that infected both the armed forces and the nation in general led to the overall choices that ended up in them starting their wars (which then went to shit for them)... I'd actually agree. It's certainly disheartening to see this type of propaganda appear from any country.