5 ms·

> However, it's quite an old product and if you went for a Hive system from 2016 These things are part of the house, like an appliance. 7 years is nothing in t

by pmlnr 3y ago

> However, it's quite an old product and if you went for a Hive system from 2016 These things are part of the house, like an appliance. 7 years is nothing in terms of a building, it's ridiculous to disable products in such a short time.

Reason077 3y ago
Exactly. This is something that should be protected in consumer law. There should be a minimum (10 years? more?) period in which companies are required to support smart home devices and keep the cloud services that support them operational. There is an e-waste issue here as well as a consumer rights one. The old analog boiler control/timer box and thermostat in my house look they were installed in the 1980s. A bit yellowed and beat up but they still work just fine!
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Or have the products clearly labelled to say that the service is not guaranteed to keep working after a certain date.
  - shaoonb 3y ago
    It's probably there in the fine print somewhere. Maybe if it was required to be very clearly marked on the packaging like cigarette warning labels.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Yes - exactly. Big old sticker on every device saying it, that sort of thing.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        If you did it right you could make it a marketing sell point - list the number of guaranteed days left in the UI and then start telling you how much you “beat” the system once that’s past.
- rjmunro 3y ago
  In the UK this is protected by consumer law under the terms of the The Consumer Rights Act 2015. Anyone who bought their devices direct from British Gas should write to them saying that they want repair, replacement with equivalent devices that will work, or a full refund. There is no time limit, only "reasonable", which for something that is fixed into your house, 20 years seems reasonable to me. You could settle for prorating the 20 year life, so if you've had it 5 years then they will refund 75% or something. British Gas is easily big enough to absorb the losses, and has a lot of bad press at the moment because of the profit it has been making. It would set a good example for future cases. https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-...
  - mattlondon 3y ago
    Ah but to play devil's advocate, consumer rights only kicks in when you "take ownership" of something. I am sure that in the hive contract somewhere it says that you do not own it and just have a limited-use license so you are not technically a "consumer" of their service but some sort of licensed "service installation" or some other legal bullshit or sleight of hand that means they have zero obligations.
    - bloak 3y ago
      > "take ownership" Where's that quoted from? Legislation? How do you think that consumer rights apply to electricity supply and phone contracts, for example? I have no knowledge of whether consumer rights apply to Hive but I don't understand this "take ownership" principle that you're proposing here.
      - mattlondon 3y ago
        From the linked article: > KEY INFORMATION > > Taking ownership > The clock starts ticking from the date you take ownership of the goods
    - megapolitics 3y ago
      >consumer rights only kicks in when you "take ownership" of something No they don’t. Consumer rights law in the UK applies to services too.
- rwmj 3y ago
  > The old analog boiler control/timer box and thermostat in my house look they were installed in the 1980s And more importantly you can easily buy wire-compatible replacement controllers to this day.
- tzs 3y ago
  > There should be a minimum (10 years? more?) period in which companies are required to support smart home devices and keep the cloud services that support them operational 10 years (or whatever) from time the product comes to market or from the time they stop selling it? If it from the time they stop selling it that would probably lead to a lot of things not being sold for long. Manufacturers will want to get the clock started as soon as possible to minimize the amount of time they end up having to back port security fixes to libraries that upstream has stopped supporting. This could result in manufacturers discontinuing things a year to two after introducing them, replacing them with newer products that do most of what the old did but probably also incorporate newer features. That would be annoying for consumers. Say I buy some internet connected home control and security system, but don't buy all the accessories it works with. Then 5 years later I want to add say a camera. But the cameras designed for my system were discontinued 4 years earlier, and the cameras the company now sells are 3 generations ahead of that and require features or interfaces in the base system that aren't in mine. On the other hand if it is from the time the product comes to market that will also probably discourage manufactures from keeping a product available for a long time. Consumers might be reluctant to buy something that has been for sale several years knowing that it only has a few years of mandatory support left. Probably what you need are two limits, one requiring a certain number of years from the time the product is introduced, and the other requiring a certain smaller number of years after the product is discontinued.
  - Reason077 3y ago
    > "10 years (or whatever) from time the product comes to market or from the time they stop selling it?" Consumer law is typically based on the date of purchase. So, 10 years from the date of purchase, for example. Although, as pointed out by another commenter, UK consumers effectively have these rights already, as they have the right to return (to the retailer) a product that is no longer functioning after a reasonable amount of time for repair, replacement, or refund.
notahacker 3y ago
Don't see why being fixed in place in a house means that a £60 control chip should be required to last longer than a £1000 smartphone, especially since the latter doesn't offer you a discounted replacement when the OEM kills most of your functionality with incompatible OS updates locking you out of appstores and then the non-removable battery swells up and kills it.
- benj111 3y ago
  do the same with phones then. unlock them when they stop being supported so you can run your own software. id accept the same for hive if there was an open ecosystem to move it to. point is, if companies want to retain control of something they actually need to maintain it. if they dont want to maintain it, they need to give up control. they cant have it both ways.
- pmlnr 3y ago
  > Don't see why being fixed in place in a house means that a £60 control chip should be required to last longer than a £1000 smartphone Huh? You're joking, right? You want to go around and replace all switches, dimmers, etc every other year in a home?
  - notahacker 3y ago
    No, which is why I wouldn't have every single switch and dimmer in my house controlled by individual computer with custom Internet connected firmware. We're talking about a single inexpensive thermostat that's being replaced at half price after 5-7 years, I'm definitely not joking when I'm suggesting that this might actually have less impact on consumer wallets or ewaste pile than very expensive consumer devices whose OEMs' business model revolves around being replaced biannually
    - pmlnr 3y ago
      > with custom Internet connected firmware smart != internet connected. KNX, Zigbee, Z-Wave falls into this category as well, and those are local to the house, unless there's a gateway. Anyway... as others said it before, a non-smart switch lasts decades. Smart ones should as well.

by pmlnr 3y ago

Reason077 3y ago

Exactly. This is something that should be protected in consumer law. There should be a minimum (10 years? more?) period in which companies are required to support smart home devices and keep the cloud services that support them operational. There is an e-waste issue here as well as a consumer rights one. The old analog boiler control/timer box and thermostat in my house look they were installed in the 1980s. A bit yellowed and beat up but they still work just fine!

robertlagrant 3y ago
Or have the products clearly labelled to say that the service is not guaranteed to keep working after a certain date.
- shaoonb 3y ago
  It's probably there in the fine print somewhere. Maybe if it was required to be very clearly marked on the packaging like cigarette warning labels.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Yes - exactly. Big old sticker on every device saying it, that sort of thing.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      If you did it right you could make it a marketing sell point - list the number of guaranteed days left in the UI and then start telling you how much you “beat” the system once that’s past.
rjmunro 3y ago
In the UK this is protected by consumer law under the terms of the The Consumer Rights Act 2015. Anyone who bought their devices direct from British Gas should write to them saying that they want repair, replacement with equivalent devices that will work, or a full refund. There is no time limit, only "reasonable", which for something that is fixed into your house, 20 years seems reasonable to me. You could settle for prorating the 20 year life, so if you've had it 5 years then they will refund 75% or something. British Gas is easily big enough to absorb the losses, and has a lot of bad press at the moment because of the profit it has been making. It would set a good example for future cases. https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-...
- mattlondon 3y ago
  Ah but to play devil's advocate, consumer rights only kicks in when you "take ownership" of something. I am sure that in the hive contract somewhere it says that you do not own it and just have a limited-use license so you are not technically a "consumer" of their service but some sort of licensed "service installation" or some other legal bullshit or sleight of hand that means they have zero obligations.
  - bloak 3y ago
    > "take ownership" Where's that quoted from? Legislation? How do you think that consumer rights apply to electricity supply and phone contracts, for example? I have no knowledge of whether consumer rights apply to Hive but I don't understand this "take ownership" principle that you're proposing here.
    - mattlondon 3y ago
      From the linked article: > KEY INFORMATION > > Taking ownership > The clock starts ticking from the date you take ownership of the goods
  - megapolitics 3y ago
    >consumer rights only kicks in when you "take ownership" of something No they don’t. Consumer rights law in the UK applies to services too.
rwmj 3y ago
> The old analog boiler control/timer box and thermostat in my house look they were installed in the 1980s And more importantly you can easily buy wire-compatible replacement controllers to this day.
tzs 3y ago
> There should be a minimum (10 years? more?) period in which companies are required to support smart home devices and keep the cloud services that support them operational 10 years (or whatever) from time the product comes to market or from the time they stop selling it? If it from the time they stop selling it that would probably lead to a lot of things not being sold for long. Manufacturers will want to get the clock started as soon as possible to minimize the amount of time they end up having to back port security fixes to libraries that upstream has stopped supporting. This could result in manufacturers discontinuing things a year to two after introducing them, replacing them with newer products that do most of what the old did but probably also incorporate newer features. That would be annoying for consumers. Say I buy some internet connected home control and security system, but don't buy all the accessories it works with. Then 5 years later I want to add say a camera. But the cameras designed for my system were discontinued 4 years earlier, and the cameras the company now sells are 3 generations ahead of that and require features or interfaces in the base system that aren't in mine. On the other hand if it is from the time the product comes to market that will also probably discourage manufactures from keeping a product available for a long time. Consumers might be reluctant to buy something that has been for sale several years knowing that it only has a few years of mandatory support left. Probably what you need are two limits, one requiring a certain number of years from the time the product is introduced, and the other requiring a certain smaller number of years after the product is discontinued.
- Reason077 3y ago
  > "10 years (or whatever) from time the product comes to market or from the time they stop selling it?" Consumer law is typically based on the date of purchase. So, 10 years from the date of purchase, for example. Although, as pointed out by another commenter, UK consumers effectively have these rights already, as they have the right to return (to the retailer) a product that is no longer functioning after a reasonable amount of time for repair, replacement, or refund.

notahacker 3y ago

Don't see why being fixed in place in a house means that a £60 control chip should be required to last longer than a £1000 smartphone, especially since the latter doesn't offer you a discounted replacement when the OEM kills most of your functionality with incompatible OS updates locking you out of appstores and then the non-removable battery swells up and kills it.

benj111 3y ago
do the same with phones then. unlock them when they stop being supported so you can run your own software. id accept the same for hive if there was an open ecosystem to move it to. point is, if companies want to retain control of something they actually need to maintain it. if they dont want to maintain it, they need to give up control. they cant have it both ways.
pmlnr 3y ago
> Don't see why being fixed in place in a house means that a £60 control chip should be required to last longer than a £1000 smartphone Huh? You're joking, right? You want to go around and replace all switches, dimmers, etc every other year in a home?
- notahacker 3y ago
  No, which is why I wouldn't have every single switch and dimmer in my house controlled by individual computer with custom Internet connected firmware. We're talking about a single inexpensive thermostat that's being replaced at half price after 5-7 years, I'm definitely not joking when I'm suggesting that this might actually have less impact on consumer wallets or ewaste pile than very expensive consumer devices whose OEMs' business model revolves around being replaced biannually
  - pmlnr 3y ago
    > with custom Internet connected firmware smart != internet connected. KNX, Zigbee, Z-Wave falls into this category as well, and those are local to the house, unless there's a gateway. Anyway... as others said it before, a non-smart switch lasts decades. Smart ones should as well.