6 ms·

The problem with blog posts like this one is that they're largely ignored for their content. Instead, those with an agenda or an axe to grind (on either side) c

by cletus 15y ago

The problem with blog posts like this one is that they're largely ignored for their content. Instead, those with an agenda or an axe to grind (on either side) come out of the woodwork. Your comment is a case in point. Anyone familiar with your story (at Google and, as you know, there are many of us who are) knows how totally skewed your perception is. Many people (including me) tried to offer you constructive advice. Without getting into specifics I think it's fair to say that any problems you had were pretty much entirely of your own making. Regarding a few specifics: - You mischaracterize the slotting process, which is now largely gone anyway (and you should know this so I'm not sure why you're bring it up as if it were a present problem); - I can't speak for how much time managers spend on Perf but managing their people and the careers of those people is kinda their job. As for engineers, it depends on how much feedback you need to do. One engineer I know how to do >20 feedbacks and this took him a couple of days. Generally speaking, the more you have to do it, the quicker you are (at each one); The fact that performance is peer-driven is overall a good thing. It means your relationship with your peers matters and this isn't just an arbitrary managerial decision. I see you still don't get that. Google isn't perfect. Then again, nothing is. But it's pretty great. Or, rather, it can be. You get as much out of it as you put in. See something that needs fixing? Then fix it. It's certainly not a place for those that simply like to sit back and complain.

michaelochurch 15y ago
You mischaracterize the slotting process, which is now largely gone anyway (and you should know this so I'm not sure why you're bring it up as if it were a present problem) I said that they got rid of it, but I think the fact that such an obviously bad idea could get in the door in the first place is symptomatic of out-of-touch managers, and the same people are still there-- just coming up with new bad ideas (like the 3 word mission statements) that will linger around for 5 years. The fact that performance is peer-driven is overall a good thing. It means your relationship with your peers matters and this isn't just an arbitrary managerial decision. In theory, this would be true. In practice at Google, manager-as-SPOF is as much in force as it is in any other company. Actually, I think it's more the case at Google than at most places, because managers can unilaterally block transfers and because HR does nothing about abuse-of-process issues. What Perf does is that it gives more reasons to deny promotions, not more avenues toward success. Managers can block promotions, and so can influential peers. So, in some cases, can trigger-happy idiots who abuse the unsolicited feedback feature (which does nothing but breed distrust, especially with the "manager-only feedback" feature, which is, at best, a quarter-step up from "XXX is a slut" gossip in fraternity bathrooms). See something that needs fixing? Then fix it. If you try to fix managerial, cultural, or product problems you just make enemies of the people who are invested in bad ideas and stupid decisions. It's really not worth doing.
- beatle 15y ago
  >This is the era when Google decided to get "real managers" and they hired a bunch of executives from places like Oracle, IBM, and Intel. Wrong. The problem with Google started with the new CEO. The decision to focus on Facebook, the Motorola acquisition, Google+, integration across all Google products and services,etc. these are not mid-level management decisions. These are decisions made by Larry Page. The problem is with the CEO.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Why is integration a problem? It's working pretty well for Apple.
    - beatle 15y ago
      Because Apple sells products. Google sells YOUR personal information that you do NOT want to share to advertisers. Big difference.
      - JamieFlournoy 15y ago
        >Google sells YOUR personal information that you do NOT want to share to advertisers. According to Google, this is not true. https://www.google.com/search?q=Google+does+not+share+personal+information+with+advertisers https://www.google.com/search?q=Google+does+not+share+person...
        grabastic 15y ago
        Just a nitpick... but is there a particular link in these results that you want us to view? There's probably ample evidence to support your claim, but linking to search results doesn't seem all that helpful. (If Google is still personalizing web searches or if someone has blocked a domain from their results we could be looking at different lists.)
        poglet 15y ago
edwardw 15y ago
> Your comment is a case in point. Anyone familiar with your story (at Google and, as you know, there are many of us who are) knows how totally skewed your perception is. Speak for yourself, would you? I'm myself a victim, unfortunately. I never even knew my Perf when I was with the company, only discovered it accidentally after I left. The process is very broken for me. Thanks @michaelochurch, I now know better about what had happened.
- anthonydchang 15y ago
  Huh? You didn't see those links on the left? You missed those emails that told you Perf is completed and please go in and check your reviews?
  - edwardw 15y ago
    @anthonydchang No, I never received such emails. My manager and / or HR never bother. When I discovered this accidently after I left, I complained by submitting a ticket. But you know what, almost whole managements at that subsidiary (read: Google China) has been sacked. So nobody could care less about it. I must say working for Google is THE worst working experience for me.
    - anthonydchang 15y ago
      Even without the emails, there are the links on the left in Perf that you can see your peer and manager reviews. Unless you're telling me Google China used a different Perf. I'm sorry to hear that you feel your time at Google is the worst experience for you, but your story just doesn't make sense. How can you submit a ticket after you left? Were you in eng? Did you not see mchurch's delusional rants and all the people that came out trying to help him? If anything, the support, advice given to mchurch is exactly why Google is a pretty awesome place to work.
      - edwardw 15y ago
        The only reason I visited my personal profile was to write weekly snippet. So no, I didn't pay attention to the links you mentioned if there were no Perf emails to remind me. I submitted a ticket from outside as an alumnus. It is a fact. Credit to Google for setting this up. That being said, if there is anyone gets delusional, it is you. I'm an engineer and used to work for Sun Microsystems. It was awesome. So I have pretty good idea about what it takes and what to expect working for a good silicon valley company in general, including Google. It just didn't apply to what happened to me in Google.
crististm 15y ago
Did anyone ever question you for being full of it? Judging from the tone only... Why did you get defensive in the end ("google isn't perfect..." = "water is wet", no, really)?
- blueski 15y ago
  Yes, this was certainly questioned. His threads on internal engineering lists (adopting this tone after just a few months at Google) are somewhat legendary. I'd caution anyone from forming an impression of the company from mchurch.
  - crististm 15y ago
    Actually, my reply was to cletus. I don't know either of them but he seems just too much overboard with kissing the management in the but.
munificent 15y ago
Anyone familiar with your story (at Google and, as you know, there are many of us who are) knows how totally skewed your perception is. I'm familiar with michaelochurch's story (at least as much as your average Googler is, I assume) and I second what cletus is saying here.

by cletus 15y ago

michaelochurch 15y ago

You mischaracterize the slotting process, which is now largely gone anyway (and you should know this so I'm not sure why you're bring it up as if it were a present problem) I said that they got rid of it, but I think the fact that such an obviously bad idea could get in the door in the first place is symptomatic of out-of-touch managers, and the same people are still there-- just coming up with new bad ideas (like the 3 word mission statements) that will linger around for 5 years. The fact that performance is peer-driven is overall a good thing. It means your relationship with your peers matters and this isn't just an arbitrary managerial decision. In theory, this would be true. In practice at Google, manager-as-SPOF is as much in force as it is in any other company. Actually, I think it's more the case at Google than at most places, because managers can unilaterally block transfers and because HR does nothing about abuse-of-process issues. What Perf does is that it gives more reasons to deny promotions, not more avenues toward success. Managers can block promotions, and so can influential peers. So, in some cases, can trigger-happy idiots who abuse the unsolicited feedback feature (which does nothing but breed distrust, especially with the "manager-only feedback" feature, which is, at best, a quarter-step up from "XXX is a slut" gossip in fraternity bathrooms). See something that needs fixing? Then fix it. If you try to fix managerial, cultural, or product problems you just make enemies of the people who are invested in bad ideas and stupid decisions. It's really not worth doing.

beatle 15y ago
>This is the era when Google decided to get "real managers" and they hired a bunch of executives from places like Oracle, IBM, and Intel. Wrong. The problem with Google started with the new CEO. The decision to focus on Facebook, the Motorola acquisition, Google+, integration across all Google products and services,etc. these are not mid-level management decisions. These are decisions made by Larry Page. The problem is with the CEO.
- jrockway 15y ago
  Why is integration a problem? It's working pretty well for Apple.
  - beatle 15y ago
    Because Apple sells products. Google sells YOUR personal information that you do NOT want to share to advertisers. Big difference.
    - JamieFlournoy 15y ago
      >Google sells YOUR personal information that you do NOT want to share to advertisers. According to Google, this is not true. https://www.google.com/search?q=Google+does+not+share+personal+information+with+advertisers https://www.google.com/search?q=Google+does+not+share+person...
      - grabastic 15y ago
        Just a nitpick... but is there a particular link in these results that you want us to view? There's probably ample evidence to support your claim, but linking to search results doesn't seem all that helpful. (If Google is still personalizing web searches or if someone has blocked a domain from their results we could be looking at different lists.)
        poglet 15y ago

edwardw 15y ago

> Your comment is a case in point. Anyone familiar with your story (at Google and, as you know, there are many of us who are) knows how totally skewed your perception is. Speak for yourself, would you? I'm myself a victim, unfortunately. I never even knew my Perf when I was with the company, only discovered it accidentally after I left. The process is very broken for me. Thanks @michaelochurch, I now know better about what had happened.

anthonydchang 15y ago
Huh? You didn't see those links on the left? You missed those emails that told you Perf is completed and please go in and check your reviews?
- edwardw 15y ago
  @anthonydchang No, I never received such emails. My manager and / or HR never bother. When I discovered this accidently after I left, I complained by submitting a ticket. But you know what, almost whole managements at that subsidiary (read: Google China) has been sacked. So nobody could care less about it. I must say working for Google is THE worst working experience for me.
  - anthonydchang 15y ago
    Even without the emails, there are the links on the left in Perf that you can see your peer and manager reviews. Unless you're telling me Google China used a different Perf. I'm sorry to hear that you feel your time at Google is the worst experience for you, but your story just doesn't make sense. How can you submit a ticket after you left? Were you in eng? Did you not see mchurch's delusional rants and all the people that came out trying to help him? If anything, the support, advice given to mchurch is exactly why Google is a pretty awesome place to work.
    - edwardw 15y ago
      The only reason I visited my personal profile was to write weekly snippet. So no, I didn't pay attention to the links you mentioned if there were no Perf emails to remind me. I submitted a ticket from outside as an alumnus. It is a fact. Credit to Google for setting this up. That being said, if there is anyone gets delusional, it is you. I'm an engineer and used to work for Sun Microsystems. It was awesome. So I have pretty good idea about what it takes and what to expect working for a good silicon valley company in general, including Google. It just didn't apply to what happened to me in Google.

crististm 15y ago

Did anyone ever question you for being full of it? Judging from the tone only... Why did you get defensive in the end ("google isn't perfect..." = "water is wet", no, really)?

blueski 15y ago
Yes, this was certainly questioned. His threads on internal engineering lists (adopting this tone after just a few months at Google) are somewhat legendary. I'd caution anyone from forming an impression of the company from mchurch.
- crististm 15y ago
  Actually, my reply was to cletus. I don't know either of them but he seems just too much overboard with kissing the management in the but.

munificent 15y ago

Anyone familiar with your story (at Google and, as you know, there are many of us who are) knows how totally skewed your perception is. I'm familiar with michaelochurch's story (at least as much as your average Googler is, I assume) and I second what cletus is saying here.