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Until I see a study that actually shows that “ergo” keyboard layouts actually make a difference I will continue to use QWERTY. I still believe the actual conto

Until I see a study that actually shows that “ergo” keyboard layouts actually make a difference I will continue to use QWERTY. I still believe the actual contour of the keyboard (ie Kinesis or Microsoft’s ergo keyboard) have a much larger impact than key layout.

CanaryLayout 3y ago
Microsoft's split board keyboard mostly only-addresses the wrists. It does not deal with redirects, SFBs and doesn't eliminate stretching (keyboards that reduce the number of keys help with that). QWERTY is an alternating layout. It wasn't designed for comfort. It was designed in the 19th century for a particular purpose that no longer exists (how many documents do you need to prepare that require a non-electric typewriter?) Changing your keyboard layout does play a big role in relieving hand pain than just shelling out money for boards.
- rgoulter 3y ago
  > eliminate stretching (keyboards that reduce the number of keys help with that). I think the more significant detail about "keyboards with reduced number of keys" is instead "keyboards with multiple thumbkeys". On a standard keyboard, your thumbs only get to use spacebar. With these small keyboards, my thumbs get to use space, backspace, enter, escape, tab, delete. (And I put the modifier keys as Home Row modifiers). Albeit, this is almost entirely orthogonal to how the alphabetical keys are arranged. Having 2-3 keys per thumb would be a benefit to any keyboard; where the main downside is "keyboards with 2-3 keys per thumb are expensive or diy".
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    I agree with this, especially in the context of the MS Sculpt which GP brought up. I loved that keyboard until it stopped working, but the huge dual space bar was such a waste. They could have easily split each space bar into at least three keys.
lawn 3y ago
While I do agree that the physical layout of the keyboard has a larger impact (my hands love a split keyboard with tenting), QWERTY is objectively a bad layout and almost any alternative layout (dvorak, colemak, workman, etc) will give a huge benefit regardless of what measure you use (finger travel distance, rolls, hand alteration etc).
- faraggi 3y ago
  I agree with you but I dread the day I need to change layout and train my brain and my muscle memory for another keyboard layout. I'm past my 40s- I rather teach my kid to use Dvorak.
  - CanaryLayout 3y ago
    The QMK and ZMK projects let you do this in firmware. Programmable boards are going to stick around long after we're gone. At least until Elon sells his brain-to-USB HID.
  - microtonal 3y ago
    I’m kinda of the opposite. I think alt-layouts are only a marginal improvement (you can get most of the benefit with a small number of changes), but I think it’s a fun brain teaser. I first learned Colemak-DH and I am currently trying RSTHD and I am upto 32 WPM in a few days. In my 40ies.
- rgoulter 3y ago
  Many people have tried alternative layouts and stick with them. I have not seen many anecdotes where people get used to an alternative layout, and then revert to using QWERTY because they find QWERTY more comfortable to use.
  - microtonal 3y ago
    I have seen people go back to QWERTY because the improvement was only marginal and not worth sacrificing a ubiquitous layout for. (Disclaimer: I use Colemak-DH.)
fbdab103 3y ago
Difference in what: long term hand health, comfort, efficiency? Anecdotally, I taught myself Dvorak for a couple of months. I never reached speed parity, but typing felt significantly better. The number of common words which roll off of the home row was a treat. I could easily believe that this would put less pressure on keyboards than QWERTY. My ultimate blocker was keyboard shortcuts. You get into a weird spot if you choose to maintain the original character chord (DVORAK CTRL-C would be CTRL-I on QWERTY) or force the QWERTY layout character.
- highmastdon 3y ago
  You should take a look at Colemak. It keeps the zxcv at the same place, particularly for shortcuts. I’ve switched now 6 years ago. I had a speed of about 80-85 wpm on Qwerty. And now recently I’m on the same speed with Colemak. So that took about 5 years, without deliberate practice. However after 4 months I was already at 57 WPM which is perfectly fine to be productive. I still type with thumbs on qwerty though. So I haven’t changed my phone to colemak. I must say though that when typing at a colleague's keyboard, I have to type with 4 fingers in order not to confuse the layout. I’m not able to do both as touch typing
- tbocek 3y ago
  I had the same issue, so I implemented the following workaround: https://github.com/tbocek/dvorak https://github.com/tbocek/dvorak. This remaps on Linux CTRL-I back to CTRL-C when using a Dvorak keyboard layout.
- opan 3y ago
  I see people occasionally mention shortcuts or vim as reasons they can't switch layouts, but I've done it multiple times and you just learn the new spots, same as typing words with all the letters that moved. It never felt like a showstopper for me.
  - teo_zero 3y ago
    Alas, it's not only about learning new spots. I never use any of the super useful motions with [ and { in Vi simply because they're only accessible via AltGr in my national layout.
opan 3y ago
As someone who built a split ergonomic keyboard and ended up changing layouts anyway, I don't think you can buy your way out of learning something new. I still had issues on an ergo split keyboard even with dvorak, had to switch to workman to really make the discomfort go away.

CanaryLayout 3y ago

Microsoft's split board keyboard mostly only-addresses the wrists. It does not deal with redirects, SFBs and doesn't eliminate stretching (keyboards that reduce the number of keys help with that). QWERTY is an alternating layout. It wasn't designed for comfort. It was designed in the 19th century for a particular purpose that no longer exists (how many documents do you need to prepare that require a non-electric typewriter?) Changing your keyboard layout does play a big role in relieving hand pain than just shelling out money for boards.

rgoulter 3y ago
> eliminate stretching (keyboards that reduce the number of keys help with that). I think the more significant detail about "keyboards with reduced number of keys" is instead "keyboards with multiple thumbkeys". On a standard keyboard, your thumbs only get to use spacebar. With these small keyboards, my thumbs get to use space, backspace, enter, escape, tab, delete. (And I put the modifier keys as Home Row modifiers). Albeit, this is almost entirely orthogonal to how the alphabetical keys are arranged. Having 2-3 keys per thumb would be a benefit to any keyboard; where the main downside is "keyboards with 2-3 keys per thumb are expensive or diy".
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  I agree with this, especially in the context of the MS Sculpt which GP brought up. I loved that keyboard until it stopped working, but the huge dual space bar was such a waste. They could have easily split each space bar into at least three keys.

lawn 3y ago

While I do agree that the physical layout of the keyboard has a larger impact (my hands love a split keyboard with tenting), QWERTY is objectively a bad layout and almost any alternative layout (dvorak, colemak, workman, etc) will give a huge benefit regardless of what measure you use (finger travel distance, rolls, hand alteration etc).

faraggi 3y ago
I agree with you but I dread the day I need to change layout and train my brain and my muscle memory for another keyboard layout. I'm past my 40s- I rather teach my kid to use Dvorak.
- CanaryLayout 3y ago
  The QMK and ZMK projects let you do this in firmware. Programmable boards are going to stick around long after we're gone. At least until Elon sells his brain-to-USB HID.
- microtonal 3y ago
  I’m kinda of the opposite. I think alt-layouts are only a marginal improvement (you can get most of the benefit with a small number of changes), but I think it’s a fun brain teaser. I first learned Colemak-DH and I am currently trying RSTHD and I am upto 32 WPM in a few days. In my 40ies.
rgoulter 3y ago
Many people have tried alternative layouts and stick with them. I have not seen many anecdotes where people get used to an alternative layout, and then revert to using QWERTY because they find QWERTY more comfortable to use.
- microtonal 3y ago
  I have seen people go back to QWERTY because the improvement was only marginal and not worth sacrificing a ubiquitous layout for. (Disclaimer: I use Colemak-DH.)

fbdab103 3y ago

Difference in what: long term hand health, comfort, efficiency? Anecdotally, I taught myself Dvorak for a couple of months. I never reached speed parity, but typing felt significantly better. The number of common words which roll off of the home row was a treat. I could easily believe that this would put less pressure on keyboards than QWERTY. My ultimate blocker was keyboard shortcuts. You get into a weird spot if you choose to maintain the original character chord (DVORAK CTRL-C would be CTRL-I on QWERTY) or force the QWERTY layout character.

highmastdon 3y ago
You should take a look at Colemak. It keeps the zxcv at the same place, particularly for shortcuts. I’ve switched now 6 years ago. I had a speed of about 80-85 wpm on Qwerty. And now recently I’m on the same speed with Colemak. So that took about 5 years, without deliberate practice. However after 4 months I was already at 57 WPM which is perfectly fine to be productive. I still type with thumbs on qwerty though. So I haven’t changed my phone to colemak. I must say though that when typing at a colleague's keyboard, I have to type with 4 fingers in order not to confuse the layout. I’m not able to do both as touch typing
tbocek 3y ago
I had the same issue, so I implemented the following workaround: https://github.com/tbocek/dvorak https://github.com/tbocek/dvorak. This remaps on Linux CTRL-I back to CTRL-C when using a Dvorak keyboard layout.
opan 3y ago
I see people occasionally mention shortcuts or vim as reasons they can't switch layouts, but I've done it multiple times and you just learn the new spots, same as typing words with all the letters that moved. It never felt like a showstopper for me.
- teo_zero 3y ago
  Alas, it's not only about learning new spots. I never use any of the super useful motions with [ and { in Vi simply because they're only accessible via AltGr in my national layout.

opan 3y ago

As someone who built a split ergonomic keyboard and ended up changing layouts anyway, I don't think you can buy your way out of learning something new. I still had issues on an ergo split keyboard even with dvorak, had to switch to workman to really make the discomfort go away.