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Is it plausible that cameras have more trouble with dark skin because of reduced contrast of facial features? Or is that already studied and discarded, and thi

Is it plausible that cameras have more trouble with dark skin because of reduced contrast of facial features? Or is that already studied and discarded, and this is just a training set problem?

jxf 3y ago
That's very plausible. But then that means there is an inherent bias against people with darker skin. So the more interesting question is: why wasn't that bias anticipated and caught, and if it was known, why was it allowed to go to production where it affected the lives and liberty of one group of people disproportionately?
- jurimasa 3y ago
  That's easy: racism.
- vuln 3y ago
  Because the people selling the software reported the false positive rate a x per y but just accidentally forget to report that ALL of the false positives are of one single group. I would love to be in a sales meeting with a company that develops this type of software and the police that buy it.
- mapt 3y ago
  Because nobody cared. No consequences, profit-driven company, metric-driven agencies, nobody cared. Constructing a modern-day criminal justice system from the ashes of the Bad Old Days is going to be a project for our generation or the next or the next after that, but it probably requires burning things to the ground. In the meantime: Most of the liberal democratic ideals you and I were raised on with regard to criminal justice were from academia musing on what should be, or from copaganda television shows lying about what is. They live in our heads - if you want them to be real, you have to make them real.
  - 6D794163636F756 3y ago
    There's also the chance that they didn't care to build their training set to match the expected population. Another industry dealing with this is automotives. Until recently tests were done exclusively on male crash test dummies. This resulted in higher mortality rates in women as things like seatbelts and airbags were tested on models not reflecting their bodies. This would all be because either they didn't care or they didn't realize they should care. Which is to say, I agree with you and the problem you touched on is far more pervasive and effects more people than just the legal system and we need to start doing a better job addressing it.
    - Tozen 3y ago
      Good example.
ruined 3y ago
it is definitely part of the problem. historically, film was designed for optimal rendering of light skin, with little consideration given to darker skin. that trend has continued with digital sensors and modern image processing. any photographer or videographer that regularly images black skin is aware of this. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/04/16/303721251/light-and-dark-the-racial-biases-that-remain-in-photography https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/04/16/303721251... yes, it is also a training set problem. training on real-world data will reproduce racial bias, because racial bias exists in the world. racism in, racism out. but the more direct cause of this kind of thing is the racism of the police using these tools, the states deploying these tools, and the private enterprises making these tools.
- tdehnel 3y ago
  > film was designed for optimal rendering of light skin Utter nonsense. Shadow contrast is lower with darker skin. It’s physics, no matter how much you want to see racism.
- brigandish 3y ago
  > yes, it is also a training set problem. training on real-world data will reproduce racial bias, because racial bias exists in the world. racism in, racism out. That assumes that all disparities of this kind are due to racism but the fact remains that the disparities in the racial description of arrests matches that of descriptions given by victims when they report crime. Could an entire nation including black people (who are proportionally more likely to be victims that other races) be in on the conspiracy? Let's focus on trying to avoid innocent people being victimised, either through crime or misapprehension, than making the assumption of ill intent where there is none.
paulddraper 3y ago
Very plausible. Anyone who's ever done photography knows this. Dark skin requires good quality lighting for visible facial features. Matter of physics.
Dwedit 3y ago
Not just the cameras themselves, you take low contrast footage then throw Video Compression on top of that, and you're not left with much to work with.
yieldcrv 3y ago
The studied problem is that with representation in tech at all levels, the product wouldn’t have been released at all or greenlit to begin with. I agree that “the most qualified person for the job should be hired”, we just dont agree when I point out those qualifications have nothing to do with prior professional pedigree or academic name branding, as opposed to having a different background since that would be more useful here to say “hey wait a minute this product doesnt work” sparing all of us from the debate and just having better technology
ForestCritter 3y ago
Just like they do with black cats, dark clothing, lack of lighting. Dark colors absorb light, light colors reflect light. It is the reflection of light on a surface that gives it definition. I had a black cat that was nearly impossible to get spontaneous pictures of and I take night photography. Darkness requires more exposure time which equates to standing still longer. Facial recognition grabs people moving around in whatever lighting is available. It will inherently do better on lighter colors and contrasts just like the human eye does. Why do burglars and stage hands wear all black? So that they are harder to see.
stormfather 3y ago
As someone with an extensive background in facial recognition and feature identification, yes, this absolutely is the case. You need more training data and more preprocessing, and often you just fundamentally can't get the same accuracy you can on pale faces because the information isn't there in the pixels. Same reason why it's harder for self driving cars to see black pedestrians at night. Fundamental information content. Not "racial bias". Of course, the word racism has that peculiar property of short circuiting our critical thinking because the outrage is so tantalizing...

Is it plausible that cameras have more trouble with dark skin because of reduced contrast of facial features? Or is that already studied and discarded, and this is just a training set problem?

jxf 3y ago

That's very plausible. But then that means there is an inherent bias against people with darker skin. So the more interesting question is: why wasn't that bias anticipated and caught, and if it was known, why was it allowed to go to production where it affected the lives and liberty of one group of people disproportionately?

jurimasa 3y ago
That's easy: racism.
vuln 3y ago
Because the people selling the software reported the false positive rate a x per y but just accidentally forget to report that ALL of the false positives are of one single group. I would love to be in a sales meeting with a company that develops this type of software and the police that buy it.
mapt 3y ago
Because nobody cared. No consequences, profit-driven company, metric-driven agencies, nobody cared. Constructing a modern-day criminal justice system from the ashes of the Bad Old Days is going to be a project for our generation or the next or the next after that, but it probably requires burning things to the ground. In the meantime: Most of the liberal democratic ideals you and I were raised on with regard to criminal justice were from academia musing on what should be, or from copaganda television shows lying about what is. They live in our heads - if you want them to be real, you have to make them real.
- 6D794163636F756 3y ago
  There's also the chance that they didn't care to build their training set to match the expected population. Another industry dealing with this is automotives. Until recently tests were done exclusively on male crash test dummies. This resulted in higher mortality rates in women as things like seatbelts and airbags were tested on models not reflecting their bodies. This would all be because either they didn't care or they didn't realize they should care. Which is to say, I agree with you and the problem you touched on is far more pervasive and effects more people than just the legal system and we need to start doing a better job addressing it.
  - Tozen 3y ago
    Good example.

ruined 3y ago

it is definitely part of the problem. historically, film was designed for optimal rendering of light skin, with little consideration given to darker skin. that trend has continued with digital sensors and modern image processing. any photographer or videographer that regularly images black skin is aware of this. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/04/16/303721251/light-and-dark-the-racial-biases-that-remain-in-photography https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/04/16/303721251... yes, it is also a training set problem. training on real-world data will reproduce racial bias, because racial bias exists in the world. racism in, racism out. but the more direct cause of this kind of thing is the racism of the police using these tools, the states deploying these tools, and the private enterprises making these tools.

tdehnel 3y ago
> film was designed for optimal rendering of light skin Utter nonsense. Shadow contrast is lower with darker skin. It’s physics, no matter how much you want to see racism.
brigandish 3y ago
> yes, it is also a training set problem. training on real-world data will reproduce racial bias, because racial bias exists in the world. racism in, racism out. That assumes that all disparities of this kind are due to racism but the fact remains that the disparities in the racial description of arrests matches that of descriptions given by victims when they report crime. Could an entire nation including black people (who are proportionally more likely to be victims that other races) be in on the conspiracy? Let's focus on trying to avoid innocent people being victimised, either through crime or misapprehension, than making the assumption of ill intent where there is none.

paulddraper 3y ago

Very plausible. Anyone who's ever done photography knows this. Dark skin requires good quality lighting for visible facial features. Matter of physics.

Dwedit 3y ago

Not just the cameras themselves, you take low contrast footage then throw Video Compression on top of that, and you're not left with much to work with.

yieldcrv 3y ago

The studied problem is that with representation in tech at all levels, the product wouldn’t have been released at all or greenlit to begin with. I agree that “the most qualified person for the job should be hired”, we just dont agree when I point out those qualifications have nothing to do with prior professional pedigree or academic name branding, as opposed to having a different background since that would be more useful here to say “hey wait a minute this product doesnt work” sparing all of us from the debate and just having better technology

ForestCritter 3y ago

Just like they do with black cats, dark clothing, lack of lighting. Dark colors absorb light, light colors reflect light. It is the reflection of light on a surface that gives it definition. I had a black cat that was nearly impossible to get spontaneous pictures of and I take night photography. Darkness requires more exposure time which equates to standing still longer. Facial recognition grabs people moving around in whatever lighting is available. It will inherently do better on lighter colors and contrasts just like the human eye does. Why do burglars and stage hands wear all black? So that they are harder to see.

stormfather 3y ago

As someone with an extensive background in facial recognition and feature identification, yes, this absolutely is the case. You need more training data and more preprocessing, and often you just fundamentally can't get the same accuracy you can on pale faces because the information isn't there in the pixels. Same reason why it's harder for self driving cars to see black pedestrians at night. Fundamental information content. Not "racial bias". Of course, the word racism has that peculiar property of short circuiting our critical thinking because the outrage is so tantalizing...