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i actually agree with this sentiment quite strongly. part of the reason gender identity and dysphoria, queerness, and fluid gender roles are so despised by cons

i actually agree with this sentiment quite strongly. part of the reason gender identity and dysphoria, queerness, and fluid gender roles are so despised by conservatives and religious fellows, especially when it comes to masculinity, is that it threatens the dominant power structure of the last few thousand years. sex work, and women’s empowerment is especially looked down upon. what else is labour but selling your body, yet somehow a woman is a slut to be shamed, and simultaneously the object of sexual desire. men need these latent structured in place to remain a) powerful and b) keep their sense of worth and identity. why else is being gay or “throwing like a girl” insults every western boy heard in the 90s?

xcxcx 3y ago
The "dominant power structure" of the last few N centuries broadly consisted of nations of European origin enslaving and trading others in Asia, Africa, and the Americas, plenty of which under the rule of people such as Queen Victoria. It had more to do with military differential than with gender, but now they must change the rhetoric with these discussions because wide availability of historical facts and global demographic trends do not benefit this "dominant power structure". The former slave drivers now want local women who read this trash to hate you for their own crimes so they can skip their bill
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Quibbles aside, it seems undeniable that there has existed a power relationship between men and women that likely had much more impact on people’s day to day lives than the macro-scale power structures you are describing. Nevermind the fact that it is arguable that the gender dynamics were to some degree productive of the colonialism you are describing. I don’t really get the point of your comment except insofar as the standard HN “well actually” putdown of anything resembling feminist rhetoric.
  - xcxcx 3y ago
    I see. I must have been mistaken then because I've always assumed the gap between a Dutch man and a Dutch woman was narrower than that between a Dutch man and a Bantu man
    - whimsicalism 3y ago
      Clearly, these are all tied up together. The gap between a Dutch man and a Bantu man was not merely defined by colonialism, as you well know. And gender relations defined each of those peoples day to day life far more than interactions with representatives of each other. But I still do not know the point of your comment. Is it to suggest that gender relations was not a big factor in the past?
      - xcxcx 3y ago
        The point of my comment is that it's almost as if we weren't constantly bombarded by how unfair current men are to women, we would start reflecting about these inconvenient legacies instead
        whimsicalism 3y ago
        I hear about the legacy of colonialism all the time. People can walk and chew gum at the same time. I agree, some strands of feminism can certainly ignore all other dimensions of power, especially when coming from more affluent women, but I disagree that this was the implication of the original comment.
        xcxcx 3y ago
        Since you keep referring to an original comment, I unfortunately must ask which comment you're talking about
        whimsicalism 3y ago
        > Since you keep referring to an original comment This is my first mention of an original comment, but I was referring to this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37026511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37026511
golergka 3y ago
Criminalising and punishing sex work has more support among women than men.
- xcxcx 3y ago
  OPEC has more support among Saudis than Germans
krona 3y ago
If what you describe were remotely true then wouldn't legal male prostitution be a cultural universal?
SamPatt 3y ago
Many of the strongest opponents of sex work are women. I can't speak for the commenter you're responding to, but the delusional part of that quote for me was the idea that men opposed sex work because women earn a lot of money. I'm not conservative, but I was raised in that world, and I can assure you they believe sex is only acceptable within marriage. The vast majority of them would absolutely support a successful businesswoman who earned her money through any moral means.
memefrog 3y ago
> i actually agree with this sentiment quite strongly. part of the reason gender identity and dysphoria, queerness, and fluid gender roles are so despised by conservatives and religious fellows, especially when it comes to masculinity, is that it threatens the dominant power structure of the last few thousand years. No, it's because it's all total mental delusion, and we stand up for the truth above coddling people who should be receiving mental health treatment. You cannot be half a man and half a woman unless you're in the tiny proportion of people with an intersex genetic disorder. It has nothing to do with power structure and nothing to do with religion. >sex work, and women’s empowerment is especially looked down upon. what else is labour but selling your body, yet somehow a woman is a slut to be shamed, and simultaneously the object of sexual desire. Prostitution is despised because it is fundamentally exploitative of everyone involved, and bad for the stability of society. The origins of the taboo probably also involve the very high level of venereal disease that accompanied it until very recently. And it's not like that problem has been entirely solved either. >men need these latent structured in place to remain a) powerful and b) keep their sense of worth and identity. Delusional. >why else is being gay or “throwing like a girl” insults every western boy heard in the 90s? Boys don't want to be seen as girlish for the same reason that girls in the 90s (and the 2000s, and the 2010s, and probably the 2020s too, by the way) don't want to be seen as boyish. When boys go through puberty they are competing with each other to be masculine. When girls go through puberty they are competing with each other to be feminine.

xcxcx 3y ago

The "dominant power structure" of the last few N centuries broadly consisted of nations of European origin enslaving and trading others in Asia, Africa, and the Americas, plenty of which under the rule of people such as Queen Victoria. It had more to do with military differential than with gender, but now they must change the rhetoric with these discussions because wide availability of historical facts and global demographic trends do not benefit this "dominant power structure". The former slave drivers now want local women who read this trash to hate you for their own crimes so they can skip their bill

whimsicalism 3y ago
Quibbles aside, it seems undeniable that there has existed a power relationship between men and women that likely had much more impact on people’s day to day lives than the macro-scale power structures you are describing. Nevermind the fact that it is arguable that the gender dynamics were to some degree productive of the colonialism you are describing. I don’t really get the point of your comment except insofar as the standard HN “well actually” putdown of anything resembling feminist rhetoric.
- xcxcx 3y ago
  I see. I must have been mistaken then because I've always assumed the gap between a Dutch man and a Dutch woman was narrower than that between a Dutch man and a Bantu man
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    Clearly, these are all tied up together. The gap between a Dutch man and a Bantu man was not merely defined by colonialism, as you well know. And gender relations defined each of those peoples day to day life far more than interactions with representatives of each other. But I still do not know the point of your comment. Is it to suggest that gender relations was not a big factor in the past?
    - xcxcx 3y ago
      The point of my comment is that it's almost as if we weren't constantly bombarded by how unfair current men are to women, we would start reflecting about these inconvenient legacies instead
      - whimsicalism 3y ago
        I hear about the legacy of colonialism all the time. People can walk and chew gum at the same time. I agree, some strands of feminism can certainly ignore all other dimensions of power, especially when coming from more affluent women, but I disagree that this was the implication of the original comment.
        xcxcx 3y ago
        Since you keep referring to an original comment, I unfortunately must ask which comment you're talking about
        whimsicalism 3y ago
        > Since you keep referring to an original comment This is my first mention of an original comment, but I was referring to this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37026511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37026511

golergka 3y ago

Criminalising and punishing sex work has more support among women than men.

xcxcx 3y ago
OPEC has more support among Saudis than Germans

krona 3y ago

If what you describe were remotely true then wouldn't legal male prostitution be a cultural universal?

SamPatt 3y ago

Many of the strongest opponents of sex work are women. I can't speak for the commenter you're responding to, but the delusional part of that quote for me was the idea that men opposed sex work because women earn a lot of money. I'm not conservative, but I was raised in that world, and I can assure you they believe sex is only acceptable within marriage. The vast majority of them would absolutely support a successful businesswoman who earned her money through any moral means.

memefrog 3y ago

> i actually agree with this sentiment quite strongly. part of the reason gender identity and dysphoria, queerness, and fluid gender roles are so despised by conservatives and religious fellows, especially when it comes to masculinity, is that it threatens the dominant power structure of the last few thousand years. No, it's because it's all total mental delusion, and we stand up for the truth above coddling people who should be receiving mental health treatment. You cannot be half a man and half a woman unless you're in the tiny proportion of people with an intersex genetic disorder. It has nothing to do with power structure and nothing to do with religion. >sex work, and women’s empowerment is especially looked down upon. what else is labour but selling your body, yet somehow a woman is a slut to be shamed, and simultaneously the object of sexual desire. Prostitution is despised because it is fundamentally exploitative of everyone involved, and bad for the stability of society. The origins of the taboo probably also involve the very high level of venereal disease that accompanied it until very recently. And it's not like that problem has been entirely solved either. >men need these latent structured in place to remain a) powerful and b) keep their sense of worth and identity. Delusional. >why else is being gay or “throwing like a girl” insults every western boy heard in the 90s? Boys don't want to be seen as girlish for the same reason that girls in the 90s (and the 2000s, and the 2010s, and probably the 2020s too, by the way) don't want to be seen as boyish. When boys go through puberty they are competing with each other to be masculine. When girls go through puberty they are competing with each other to be feminine.