4 ms·

In most western countries, there's a high amount of unemployment for people who do relatively unskilled jobs. When people use he automated check-out in shops or

In most western countries, there's a high amount of unemployment for people who do relatively unskilled jobs. When people use he automated check-out in shops or the machines in the post office instead of the human worker, usually what happens is that either people are fired or contracts are not renewed as there's less need for human employees. This then directly leads to more unemployment for unskilled workers. Since I'd rather those unskilled workers be actually doing a job [1] rather than my taxes paying for them to be on welfare while being disgruntled that they don't have a job, I purposefully do not use automated check out or do not use the machines. Of course you can keep thinking that everyone who doesn't do the same thing you do are leeches or sheep and don't actually have a clear reason for why they do it but maybe try and learn to keep an open mind and be more empathetic about the world. [1] Assuming the shops passes the savings of having automated checkouts to their customers, I would be paying slightly more to subsidize their salary (of course, I'm rather doubtful that the shops would pass on the savings)

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
I suspect that the amount of people using self-checkout expressly to avoid human interaction (one can listen to music or a podcast without interruption, or one is simply unsocial) exceeds those who are avoiding self-checkout for your idealistic reasons. In my view, just bring on UBI already.
- nicolas_t 3y ago
  Oh absolutely agreed for the UBI. Unfortunately I don't see it happening anytime soon. But there's also a question I've always had about UBI. If someone works as a cashier let's say, it might not be an amazing job, but there's still some feeling of fulfillment of being part of society, of working, of getting to know regulars at the small supermarket you work at (for the smaller city sized grocery stores, not talking about the huge american superstores). Would having UBI but not having a job be fulfilling, would people feel excluded from society even if they have enough to have a decent enough standard of living? And yes, I know, plus self checkout is generally faster especially since a lot of supermarkets now only have less checkout lanes. So, most people will chose convenience and avoiding human interactions over ideals. I just wanted to explain to the OP that is assumption that people who decide not to use automated checkouts or automated shipping label creation might not be because they are sheeps or leeches.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Would having UBI but not having a job be fulfilling Probably not; the whole point of UBI is to make it easier for people to have and transition jobs (compared to means-tested welfare) and to survive when the the valie of their labor in the economy is low, not to eliminate work. UBI is conceived to enable more people to work, at better jobs on average, than not having UBI (by not penalizing people for work the way means-tested welfare does, and by enabling voluntary transitional breaks from work for retraining or taking a temporary downgrade to get on a career path that doesn't dead end as soon, etc.)
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Your concerns about UBI are very dependent on the region and culture. In many countries, socializing at the supermarket is not common. Trying to strike up even a limited polite conversation would be a faux pas or worse. But with regard to how to preserve social opportunities under UBI, I think the Nordic countries suggest the best approach. There in places of terminal unemployment where quite a lot of people are already on the dole, the state also offers a large amount of social and cultural infrastructure: libraries, concerts, clubhouses, etc. Sure, some people choose nevertheless to drink their lives away, but there are productive ways to spend one’s time. Conversely, I think things would be a lot tougher in countries like the US where everything is privatized and the decline of “third places” has been a trend already for decades now.
    - nicolas_t 3y ago
      > Your concerns about UBI are very dependent on the region and culture. In many countries, socializing at the supermarket is not common. I mean I've lived in a few countries, I've socialized with the cashier from the local supermarket in France after seeing the same person 20+ more times. I currently live in Hong Kong and after going often enough to some restaurants I've socialized with the waiters, chef, etc. Including becoming friend with the owner. I've done the same while living in Japan where I became good friend with a cashier at my local supermarket who was a student working part time and was invited to her wedding and became friends with restaurants owners too by coming often enough (I'd say Japan makes it easier than in other countries because people expect to meet other in small restaurants when sitting around the counter, see Midnight Diner on netflix for an example of that culture). I've also had similar experience in Malaysia, especially with street sellers. I feel that once you keep seeing the same faces repeatedly, over time you can start making a connexion. And at least that's held true in every countries I've lived in. I haven't lived long enough in the US to say if that would work and I do think that it works better with walkable cities where local supermarkets/grocery stores in the center of the city are tiny...

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

I suspect that the amount of people using self-checkout expressly to avoid human interaction (one can listen to music or a podcast without interruption, or one is simply unsocial) exceeds those who are avoiding self-checkout for your idealistic reasons. In my view, just bring on UBI already.

nicolas_t 3y ago
Oh absolutely agreed for the UBI. Unfortunately I don't see it happening anytime soon. But there's also a question I've always had about UBI. If someone works as a cashier let's say, it might not be an amazing job, but there's still some feeling of fulfillment of being part of society, of working, of getting to know regulars at the small supermarket you work at (for the smaller city sized grocery stores, not talking about the huge american superstores). Would having UBI but not having a job be fulfilling, would people feel excluded from society even if they have enough to have a decent enough standard of living? And yes, I know, plus self checkout is generally faster especially since a lot of supermarkets now only have less checkout lanes. So, most people will chose convenience and avoiding human interactions over ideals. I just wanted to explain to the OP that is assumption that people who decide not to use automated checkouts or automated shipping label creation might not be because they are sheeps or leeches.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Would having UBI but not having a job be fulfilling Probably not; the whole point of UBI is to make it easier for people to have and transition jobs (compared to means-tested welfare) and to survive when the the valie of their labor in the economy is low, not to eliminate work. UBI is conceived to enable more people to work, at better jobs on average, than not having UBI (by not penalizing people for work the way means-tested welfare does, and by enabling voluntary transitional breaks from work for retraining or taking a temporary downgrade to get on a career path that doesn't dead end as soon, etc.)
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Your concerns about UBI are very dependent on the region and culture. In many countries, socializing at the supermarket is not common. Trying to strike up even a limited polite conversation would be a faux pas or worse. But with regard to how to preserve social opportunities under UBI, I think the Nordic countries suggest the best approach. There in places of terminal unemployment where quite a lot of people are already on the dole, the state also offers a large amount of social and cultural infrastructure: libraries, concerts, clubhouses, etc. Sure, some people choose nevertheless to drink their lives away, but there are productive ways to spend one’s time. Conversely, I think things would be a lot tougher in countries like the US where everything is privatized and the decline of “third places” has been a trend already for decades now.
  - nicolas_t 3y ago
    > Your concerns about UBI are very dependent on the region and culture. In many countries, socializing at the supermarket is not common. I mean I've lived in a few countries, I've socialized with the cashier from the local supermarket in France after seeing the same person 20+ more times. I currently live in Hong Kong and after going often enough to some restaurants I've socialized with the waiters, chef, etc. Including becoming friend with the owner. I've done the same while living in Japan where I became good friend with a cashier at my local supermarket who was a student working part time and was invited to her wedding and became friends with restaurants owners too by coming often enough (I'd say Japan makes it easier than in other countries because people expect to meet other in small restaurants when sitting around the counter, see Midnight Diner on netflix for an example of that culture). I've also had similar experience in Malaysia, especially with street sellers. I feel that once you keep seeing the same faces repeatedly, over time you can start making a connexion. And at least that's held true in every countries I've lived in. I haven't lived long enough in the US to say if that would work and I do think that it works better with walkable cities where local supermarkets/grocery stores in the center of the city are tiny...