6 ms·

The invisible laws that led to America’s housing crisis

21 points by MilnerRoute 3y ago

gagged_s_poster 3y ago
Totally 100% unrelated and you're not allowed to even think about it: Letting in an unsustainable amount of unvetted migrants illegally enter the country (+ never mind the harm that's done to the immigrants that are already here. Never think about that)
- mbStavola 3y ago
  According to the US census, roughly 3M undocumented people own a home and there are approximately 144M housing units total. So, ~2% of the market is from the undocumented. Additionally, less than half of the entire undocumented population makes more than $28k a year. So you're right, it is totally, 100% unrelated. Otherwise you're making a claim that one of the poorest demographics in the US with the least amount of home ownership is somehow responsible for a massive price spike in housing over the last few years.
  - Veliladon 3y ago
    To be fair all those rich private equity firms who have been buying up real estate and driving up the prices to insane degrees are impossible to fight back against as an individual while shitting on illegal immigrants and any other underclass at least gives an illusory sense of self-superiority and control over the situation.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    Not an economist, what type of impact does the 2% increase in demand that you demonstrated do to pricing in an inelastic constrained market? Also, most of the remaining 11.3 million undocumented still occupy housing. So out of 340 million Americans 35% don't own property leaving around 119 million non-home owners. With 8.3 million undocumented not owning homes per your numbers, undocumented are adding approx. 7% to the needed rental market. Again, what does that increased demand do to housing pricing in a relatively inelastic constrained market? I'm personally for more open borders but I'm also for being honest about what that means including increased housing stocks.
    - lesuorac 3y ago
      > Otherwise you're making a claim that one of the poorest demographics in the US with the least amount of home ownership is somehow responsible for a massive price spike in housing over the last few years. If there are 10 houses and 12 people. The houses will go to the 10 highest paying people and so the 2 poorest immigrants will be left in the rain. The problem is not that we now have 10 houses and 15 people (3 from immigration) it's that there's 8 houses now [1]. [1]: https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives/us-housing-shortage https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives...
      - Xorakios 3y ago
        That is correct of course, but the US federal housing insurers are understandably shy about talking about their contribution to the problem. Especially after 2008 almost all house valuations in the US are based on square footage and number of bathrooms. So bigger houses and more plumbing is the only way to make money as a developer.
  - Xorakios 3y ago
    Since it's illegal in the US for undocumented people to get federal guaranteed home loans, please supply a reference for that. The latest available US census data for rentals is here, and in many use cases rentals drive home sale prices more than the reverse: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/immigration-statistics/Pop_Estimate/UnauthImmigrant/unauthorized_immigrant_population_estimates_2015_-_2018.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/immigra...
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Since it's illegal in the US for undocumented people to get federal guaranteed home loans No one made a claim about federally guaranteed home loans except you, and you can’t transfer a claim from home loans in general to federally guaranteed home loans, because the latter are only about half of the former. And actually the claim wasn’t even about home loans to start with, but about home ownership.
- rayiner 3y ago
  You’re allowed to talk about it.
nerdchum 3y ago
I find it strange that between zoning laws and property taxes, people don't actually ever own their home. The government is a permanent HOA with a whole bunch of rules to follow and money go pay.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  Unfortunately, it's more likely private interests moving into the market than some regulations causing increasing costs. This omnipresent idea that government can only be the bad guy is a helluva marketing job by American capitalists... unsurprisingly the "solutions" of dezoning and evicting taxes are just a capitalists wet dream. Strangely corporate shilling.
  - nerdchum 3y ago
    I genuinely find it strange that after the mortgage is paid off...that you have to abide by zoning and pay property taxes for your shelter that you and your family need to survive or the government will take your house away.
    - cyanydeez 3y ago
      Living in a society requires structure.
      - nerdchum 3y ago
        Structure is a continuum ranging from repression to anarchy. For example the Democrats provided structure in the form of slavery in the south pre civil war but that was found to be wrong of the government and on the repressive side of the continuum. Some would argue the government is heading towards repression in modern times as well. The Democrats seem to be very pro-government still though and support government engineering of society. I don't think anyone's arguing for anarchy though.
        dctoedt 3y ago
PopAlongKid 3y ago
>Oregon, California, Washington, Montana and Maine have ended them statewide. That represents well over 50 million residents, so some progress has been made, we'll see how it turns out over the next decade. It's also interesting that despite zoning laws, good things can happen where one town borders another. My suburban housing sub-division (SFH on 0.2 acre lots built 70 years ago) is directly adjacent to a very similar suburb, but on the other side of the line, within a half mile or so, there are hundreds of apartments, plus stores, churches, professional offices, etc. that the other suburb has allowed via zoning in this neighborhood.

21 points by MilnerRoute 3y ago

Totally 100% unrelated and you're not allowed to even think about it: Letting in an unsustainable amount of unvetted migrants illegally enter the country (+ never mind the harm that's done to the immigrants that are already here. Never think about that)

mbStavola 3y ago
According to the US census, roughly 3M undocumented people own a home and there are approximately 144M housing units total. So, ~2% of the market is from the undocumented. Additionally, less than half of the entire undocumented population makes more than $28k a year. So you're right, it is totally, 100% unrelated. Otherwise you're making a claim that one of the poorest demographics in the US with the least amount of home ownership is somehow responsible for a massive price spike in housing over the last few years.
- Veliladon 3y ago
  To be fair all those rich private equity firms who have been buying up real estate and driving up the prices to insane degrees are impossible to fight back against as an individual while shitting on illegal immigrants and any other underclass at least gives an illusory sense of self-superiority and control over the situation.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    [flagged]
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  Not an economist, what type of impact does the 2% increase in demand that you demonstrated do to pricing in an inelastic constrained market? Also, most of the remaining 11.3 million undocumented still occupy housing. So out of 340 million Americans 35% don't own property leaving around 119 million non-home owners. With 8.3 million undocumented not owning homes per your numbers, undocumented are adding approx. 7% to the needed rental market. Again, what does that increased demand do to housing pricing in a relatively inelastic constrained market? I'm personally for more open borders but I'm also for being honest about what that means including increased housing stocks.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    > Otherwise you're making a claim that one of the poorest demographics in the US with the least amount of home ownership is somehow responsible for a massive price spike in housing over the last few years. If there are 10 houses and 12 people. The houses will go to the 10 highest paying people and so the 2 poorest immigrants will be left in the rain. The problem is not that we now have 10 houses and 15 people (3 from immigration) it's that there's 8 houses now [1]. [1]: https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives/us-housing-shortage https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives...
    - Xorakios 3y ago
      That is correct of course, but the US federal housing insurers are understandably shy about talking about their contribution to the problem. Especially after 2008 almost all house valuations in the US are based on square footage and number of bathrooms. So bigger houses and more plumbing is the only way to make money as a developer.
- Xorakios 3y ago
  Since it's illegal in the US for undocumented people to get federal guaranteed home loans, please supply a reference for that. The latest available US census data for rentals is here, and in many use cases rentals drive home sale prices more than the reverse: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/immigration-statistics/Pop_Estimate/UnauthImmigrant/unauthorized_immigrant_population_estimates_2015_-_2018.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/immigra...
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Since it's illegal in the US for undocumented people to get federal guaranteed home loans No one made a claim about federally guaranteed home loans except you, and you can’t transfer a claim from home loans in general to federally guaranteed home loans, because the latter are only about half of the former. And actually the claim wasn’t even about home loans to start with, but about home ownership.
rayiner 3y ago
You’re allowed to talk about it.

nerdchum 3y ago

I find it strange that between zoning laws and property taxes, people don't actually ever own their home. The government is a permanent HOA with a whole bunch of rules to follow and money go pay.

cyanydeez 3y ago
Unfortunately, it's more likely private interests moving into the market than some regulations causing increasing costs. This omnipresent idea that government can only be the bad guy is a helluva marketing job by American capitalists... unsurprisingly the "solutions" of dezoning and evicting taxes are just a capitalists wet dream. Strangely corporate shilling.
- nerdchum 3y ago
  I genuinely find it strange that after the mortgage is paid off...that you have to abide by zoning and pay property taxes for your shelter that you and your family need to survive or the government will take your house away.
  - cyanydeez 3y ago
    Living in a society requires structure.
    - nerdchum 3y ago
      Structure is a continuum ranging from repression to anarchy. For example the Democrats provided structure in the form of slavery in the south pre civil war but that was found to be wrong of the government and on the repressive side of the continuum. Some would argue the government is heading towards repression in modern times as well. The Democrats seem to be very pro-government still though and support government engineering of society. I don't think anyone's arguing for anarchy though.
      - dctoedt 3y ago

PopAlongKid 3y ago

>Oregon, California, Washington, Montana and Maine have ended them statewide. That represents well over 50 million residents, so some progress has been made, we'll see how it turns out over the next decade. It's also interesting that despite zoning laws, good things can happen where one town borders another. My suburban housing sub-division (SFH on 0.2 acre lots built 70 years ago) is directly adjacent to a very similar suburb, but on the other side of the line, within a half mile or so, there are hundreds of apartments, plus stores, churches, professional offices, etc. that the other suburb has allowed via zoning in this neighborhood.