6 ms·

Microsoft has over 90% of the desktop OS and Office software markets. It’s impossible to come up with a reasonable definition of monopoly that doesn’t include t

by p_j_w 3y ago

Microsoft has over 90% of the desktop OS and Office software markets. It’s impossible to come up with a reasonable definition of monopoly that doesn’t include them in those markets.

prepend 3y ago
They don’t have 90% [0]. They have about 70% of just desktop, but there’s lots of competition with devices since desktops have replacements with tablets and phones and other devices. Also, as the 90s Microsoft case showed, just having a monopoly isn’t bad. It’s the harm caused by having the monopoly. Back in the 90s, Microsoft was found to harm other browsers. [0] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide
- Retric 3y ago
  Read up on past monopoly busts, you don’t need an overwhelming market share to be broken up. Standard oil was down to 64% and that didn’t save it.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    People have this "folk" definition of monopoly saying that a monopoly is 100% total market domination. Maybe because this is the win condition for the board game Monopoly? I think this idea is a serious impediment to addressing anti-competitive behavior in America.
  - prepend 3y ago
    When antitrust proceedings starts against Standard Oil in 1904, they had 91% market share [0]. By 1911 when they were broken up they were down to 64%, but that’s because the case progressed. And after the breakup they had 0%. But I think if Standard had 64% in the beginning and there was a competitive market, they would not have been broken up. [0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chart-evolution-standard-oil/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chart-evolution-standard-oi...
    - Retric 3y ago
      Which is why I said down to, they didn’t get to say we’re below the magic X% number can you please leave us alone. But presumably if their market share had fallen to 10% that would have happened. As to when the case started, it’s impossible to know what the minimum threshold was. It could just as easily been well below 64% as people where in monopoly busting push at the time.
- wak90 3y ago
  >Also, as the 90s Microsoft case showed, just having a monopoly isn’t bad. It’s the harm caused by having the monopoly. Can you elaborate your thoughts here because the point of breaking up companies with monopolistic power is they cannot be divorced from monopolistic abuse of that power. It is written into US law that the company has a legal duty to it's shareholders. It seems your point is a distinction without a difference.
  - prepend 3y ago
    The issue is that having a monopoly in the US isn’t a reason to break up a company, even though it might make it possible to abuse. Antitrust law in the US requires some consumer harm, so it’s the abuse of monopoly power that’s the crux, not just having it. And duty to shareholders would actually mean that management would not abuse their monopoly power because of the risk of breakup.
  - joshuamorton 3y ago
    Basically all of this is false. The legal duty to shareholders doesn't mean that companies need to violate the law. In reality, saying " we don't abuse our market position to avoid regulatory scrutiny" is acting in the interests of shareholders, and a lawsuit wouldn't go further. Otherwise you'd be saying that companies had a duty to break all laws in pursuit of shareholder value, which is obviously silly. And yeah under us law you have to prove consumer harm or anticompetitive practice, not just having a significant market majority.
    - wak90 3y ago
      I am aware of the legal duty. The legal duty is to maximize shareholder value but not explicitly break the law. What do you think this looks like in practice? Because it makes logical sense to me that monopolistic companies would use their monopolistic power to come as close as they can with anti competitive behavior without attracting scrutiny which is why you break them up in the first place. And it's not theoretical, there are many examples not least of which is Microsoft.
      - 3y ago
constantcrying 3y ago
It isn't about market share, but about anti-competitive practices. Is Microsoft abusing their market position to keep competitors out of the market?
- gmerc 3y ago
  laughs in constant bing, onedrive, fucking edge, teams upsells on my paid version of windows. Laughs in edge ignoring browser preferences screwing over firefox laughs in constantly returning widgets, Microsoft reward currency on the start menu, forced telemetry. Laughs in teams bundling. Laughs in the coming super monopoly of cross domain AI finetuning in teams. Lol, by the standards of the last century, they are worse than what did them in in the 90s
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      You asked, > Is Microsoft abusing their market position to keep competitors out of the market? and they replied with a list of places MS uses their position to try and push their offerings over competitors.
      - constantcrying 3y ago
        >You asked No, I did not. I stated the question which would need to be answered if you wanted to figure out if Microsoft should face an anti-trust.
        lolinder 3y ago
        That's not at all how your initial comment reads. You didn't frame the question as a question other people would have to ask, you framed it in a way that clearly invited a response. You might not have liked the way they replied, but your follow-up was super dismissive given that you asked a question.
JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
But you can have them for free so it doesn't count
- lolinder 3y ago
  You can't have them for free—you pay for Windows in the form of a higher OEM cost for your computer. EDIT: OP eventually clarified in the thread that they're talking about piracy. So apparently the argument is that because Microsoft products can be pirated, Microsoft isn't a monopoly. Make of that what you will.
  - JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
    Only if you buy an already assembled computer, not if you take the time to assemble the components yourself. And also as a small fish the higher OEM price is being subsidised by the Fortune 500 companies which buy millions of dollars worth of products from Dell etc.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      If you assemble the components yourself, you still don't get Windows for free, you just get out of paying the Windows tax if you intend to install Linux. Edit: The idea that OEMs only tack on the extra cost to big companies is demonstrably false. For one thing, margins per-item are always lower on bulk purchases, not higher—Fortune 500 do not pay list price on anything. For another, you can see the difference in cost on the Dell XPS 13 by switching between Linux and Windows: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/xps-13-plus-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9320-laptop/usexcucto9320rpl01 https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/xps-13-plus-dev... Computers that don't offer a Linux option just all come with that $149 surcharge baked in.
      - JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
        > > If you assemble the components yourself, you still don't get Windows for free, you just get out of paying the Windows tax if you intend to install Linux. You get Windows for free from the combo of self-assemble + torrenting + Microsoft not pursuing individual users for piracy > > Dell XPS 13 And that is what I said, if you don't assemble the thing yourself buy the cheapest option from an OEM and then you can get Microsoft products for free if you are a wise guy. And Microsoft tolerates it.
delfinom 3y ago
>Microsoft has over 90% of the desktop OS and Office software markets. Their market has been shrinking due to the rise of tablets and smartphones (so a majority of the population doesn't need PCs at home beyond certain professionals, gamers and hobbyists) They do have a large business market share, but that is also shrinking as many "modern" businesses diversify with Apple computers due to employees growing up with them. Depending on stats, it has fallen from 90% to 75% in a decade and will most likely continue to fall. This is part of the business case for Microsoft to make their software work cross-platform in order to diversify. Otherwise their position is a natural monopoly. Companies opted to all use Windows because there are certain economies of scale that occur when you all standardize on the same software, including, and this is the biggest one, your employees not needing to relearn whatever ridiculous snowflake UI scheme came up by each different linux distro. It's why Windows and macOS will continue to remain dominant in the PC space. The same goes for Office 365. Sure there are certain elements of it that are a bit _too pushy. But companies buy into it because it's one standardized and integrated system. Going elsewhere has overhead of increased training costs for end users and even the IT admin side.

by p_j_w 3y ago

Microsoft has over 90% of the desktop OS and Office software markets. It’s impossible to come up with a reasonable definition of monopoly that doesn’t include them in those markets.

prepend 3y ago

They don’t have 90% [0]. They have about 70% of just desktop, but there’s lots of competition with devices since desktops have replacements with tablets and phones and other devices. Also, as the 90s Microsoft case showed, just having a monopoly isn’t bad. It’s the harm caused by having the monopoly. Back in the 90s, Microsoft was found to harm other browsers. [0] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide

Retric 3y ago
Read up on past monopoly busts, you don’t need an overwhelming market share to be broken up. Standard oil was down to 64% and that didn’t save it.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  People have this "folk" definition of monopoly saying that a monopoly is 100% total market domination. Maybe because this is the win condition for the board game Monopoly? I think this idea is a serious impediment to addressing anti-competitive behavior in America.
- prepend 3y ago
  When antitrust proceedings starts against Standard Oil in 1904, they had 91% market share [0]. By 1911 when they were broken up they were down to 64%, but that’s because the case progressed. And after the breakup they had 0%. But I think if Standard had 64% in the beginning and there was a competitive market, they would not have been broken up. [0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chart-evolution-standard-oil/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chart-evolution-standard-oi...
  - Retric 3y ago
    Which is why I said down to, they didn’t get to say we’re below the magic X% number can you please leave us alone. But presumably if their market share had fallen to 10% that would have happened. As to when the case started, it’s impossible to know what the minimum threshold was. It could just as easily been well below 64% as people where in monopoly busting push at the time.
wak90 3y ago
>Also, as the 90s Microsoft case showed, just having a monopoly isn’t bad. It’s the harm caused by having the monopoly. Can you elaborate your thoughts here because the point of breaking up companies with monopolistic power is they cannot be divorced from monopolistic abuse of that power. It is written into US law that the company has a legal duty to it's shareholders. It seems your point is a distinction without a difference.
- prepend 3y ago
  The issue is that having a monopoly in the US isn’t a reason to break up a company, even though it might make it possible to abuse. Antitrust law in the US requires some consumer harm, so it’s the abuse of monopoly power that’s the crux, not just having it. And duty to shareholders would actually mean that management would not abuse their monopoly power because of the risk of breakup.
- joshuamorton 3y ago
  Basically all of this is false. The legal duty to shareholders doesn't mean that companies need to violate the law. In reality, saying " we don't abuse our market position to avoid regulatory scrutiny" is acting in the interests of shareholders, and a lawsuit wouldn't go further. Otherwise you'd be saying that companies had a duty to break all laws in pursuit of shareholder value, which is obviously silly. And yeah under us law you have to prove consumer harm or anticompetitive practice, not just having a significant market majority.
  - wak90 3y ago
    I am aware of the legal duty. The legal duty is to maximize shareholder value but not explicitly break the law. What do you think this looks like in practice? Because it makes logical sense to me that monopolistic companies would use their monopolistic power to come as close as they can with anti competitive behavior without attracting scrutiny which is why you break them up in the first place. And it's not theoretical, there are many examples not least of which is Microsoft.
    - 3y ago

constantcrying 3y ago

It isn't about market share, but about anti-competitive practices. Is Microsoft abusing their market position to keep competitors out of the market?

gmerc 3y ago
laughs in constant bing, onedrive, fucking edge, teams upsells on my paid version of windows. Laughs in edge ignoring browser preferences screwing over firefox laughs in constantly returning widgets, Microsoft reward currency on the start menu, forced telemetry. Laughs in teams bundling. Laughs in the coming super monopoly of cross domain AI finetuning in teams. Lol, by the standards of the last century, they are worse than what did them in in the 90s
- constantcrying 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    You asked, > Is Microsoft abusing their market position to keep competitors out of the market? and they replied with a list of places MS uses their position to try and push their offerings over competitors.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
      >You asked No, I did not. I stated the question which would need to be answered if you wanted to figure out if Microsoft should face an anti-trust.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        That's not at all how your initial comment reads. You didn't frame the question as a question other people would have to ask, you framed it in a way that clearly invited a response. You might not have liked the way they replied, but your follow-up was super dismissive given that you asked a question.

JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago

But you can have them for free so it doesn't count

lolinder 3y ago
You can't have them for free—you pay for Windows in the form of a higher OEM cost for your computer. EDIT: OP eventually clarified in the thread that they're talking about piracy. So apparently the argument is that because Microsoft products can be pirated, Microsoft isn't a monopoly. Make of that what you will.
- JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
  Only if you buy an already assembled computer, not if you take the time to assemble the components yourself. And also as a small fish the higher OEM price is being subsidised by the Fortune 500 companies which buy millions of dollars worth of products from Dell etc.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    If you assemble the components yourself, you still don't get Windows for free, you just get out of paying the Windows tax if you intend to install Linux. Edit: The idea that OEMs only tack on the extra cost to big companies is demonstrably false. For one thing, margins per-item are always lower on bulk purchases, not higher—Fortune 500 do not pay list price on anything. For another, you can see the difference in cost on the Dell XPS 13 by switching between Linux and Windows: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/xps-13-plus-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9320-laptop/usexcucto9320rpl01 https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/xps-13-plus-dev... Computers that don't offer a Linux option just all come with that $149 surcharge baked in.
    - JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
      > > If you assemble the components yourself, you still don't get Windows for free, you just get out of paying the Windows tax if you intend to install Linux. You get Windows for free from the combo of self-assemble + torrenting + Microsoft not pursuing individual users for piracy > > Dell XPS 13 And that is what I said, if you don't assemble the thing yourself buy the cheapest option from an OEM and then you can get Microsoft products for free if you are a wise guy. And Microsoft tolerates it.

delfinom 3y ago

>Microsoft has over 90% of the desktop OS and Office software markets. Their market has been shrinking due to the rise of tablets and smartphones (so a majority of the population doesn't need PCs at home beyond certain professionals, gamers and hobbyists) They do have a large business market share, but that is also shrinking as many "modern" businesses diversify with Apple computers due to employees growing up with them. Depending on stats, it has fallen from 90% to 75% in a decade and will most likely continue to fall. This is part of the business case for Microsoft to make their software work cross-platform in order to diversify. Otherwise their position is a natural monopoly. Companies opted to all use Windows because there are certain economies of scale that occur when you all standardize on the same software, including, and this is the biggest one, your employees not needing to relearn whatever ridiculous snowflake UI scheme came up by each different linux distro. It's why Windows and macOS will continue to remain dominant in the PC space. The same goes for Office 365. Sure there are certain elements of it that are a bit _too pushy. But companies buy into it because it's one standardized and integrated system. Going elsewhere has overhead of increased training costs for end users and even the IT admin side.