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Or maybe instead of a conspiracy companies are just finding work isn't getting done and although people are loudly proclaiming productivity the work isn't mater

Or maybe instead of a conspiracy companies are just finding work isn't getting done and although people are loudly proclaiming productivity the work isn't materializing.

Racing0461 3y ago
nah because if it was about productivity, the rto emails would emphasize that. not "helping out our neighbour restaurants and city centers"
ethanbond 3y ago
So where are all the studies showing this precipitous drop in productivity? Surely those would be cited to support RTOs right?
- injb 3y ago
  Why? Why would an employer care about studies? They have either seen a drop in productivity or they haven't. They couldn't care less about what other employers are experiencing.
  - p_j_w 3y ago
    > They have either seen a drop in productivity or they haven't. Some of them are claiming that they have, but none have shown anything resembling evidence or numbers, there’s been nothing but hand waving about the value of water cooler talk. There’s no reason to believe a word they’re saying.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - voisin 3y ago
      Employers have no obligation to provide studies. They set the rules if they pay the salaries. Employees can choose to leave. In the end, the decisions by both will determine winners and losers. That’s a market!
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        Nobody is suggesting otherwise, obviously. The conversation is about whether there is a drop in productivity and what evidence we have of it, not whether employers have an obligation to collect or share such evidence.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
    I challenge you to measure the productivity of middle management.
  - Johnny555 3y ago
    Without an actual formal study, I'm skeptical that an employer can accurately measure productivity. Unless of course they are in a stagnant industry where the tasks today are exactly the same as yesterday, like counting widgets built on an assembly line.
  - porlb 3y ago
    Why would employees care about made up office busy work problems?
  - Shalle135 3y ago
    When looking at my employer - they’re enforcing a 3/2 hybrid model during the last 6 months. Before that more or less everybody worked from home 100%. During the WFH period we had more deployments & less incidents than ever. In addition we had less sick leaves (due to tolerance being higher when WFH). Yet - the leadership is ignoring this and enforcing the hybrid model.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Because any good thinker of any sort knows that their locally experienced “vibes” are rather fallible? Because sharing these insights could help convince at least some employees to RTO? Because it’s good to have credibility and look like a sensible decision-maker in the eyes of your employees? Note: Studies includes internal studies or analysis of a company’s own performance.
- Jerrrry 3y ago
  They havent done them yet, the researchers are too busy 'working from home,' getting sidelined by Youtube shorts and Facebook reels for hours on end. Jokes aside, the topology of the office<->employer relationship has inverted. Productivity has fallen even further, as people get too comfortable and start to resent the lack of a "third place", or even a second one; the allure of working, playing, and leisure from the same place all day turns out to be less ideal than others prothetized. As for the middle management's productivity themselves, that is a function of their subordinates work, and their own office water cooler politics. Between unconfident, unreliable, and gamed reports of employees' activity status, and the increased difficulty of socializing horizontally, of course middle management wants a return to office. Without it, eventually they will boil themselves as it is most apparent how little management actually is needed with modern companies.
- voisin 3y ago
  Productivity can increase on the individual levels and decrease on the team or company level, and it can be difficult for individuals to recognize this. It also isn’t necessarily the same effect across companies. I think in these discussions everyone oversimplifies to one single conclusion that should apply to all companies in all locales and all employees. There’s way more nuance to this.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    This is a non-sequitur. Sure that’s possible, and sure it’s case by case, and sure it’s nuanced. What’s especially helpful to such nuanced and detailed debates is data. So my question is why isn’t data being brought out in support of the RTO argument? Two pretty obvious potential reasons are that they don’t have data or the data doesn’t support the argument they’re making, which reflects rather poorly on management and their decision-making. I’m personally skeptical of the explanation “they have the data and it supports their argument but they just don’t wanna show it to their employees as they beg them to come back to office.” Just makes a lot less sense than the other explanations IMO.
    - kcplate 3y ago
      > So my question is why isn’t data being brought out in support of the RTO argument? No one’s bringing out data to support WFH either, so I really don’t understand this demand. WFH at scale only has around 3 years of history where in office has decades and decades.
    - voisin 3y ago
      The only data I’ve seen supporting WFH is that some percentage of employees prefer it and will quit their job if required to go back to the office and other jobs exist that do not require the office. There are plenty of anecdotes by employees stating that they are definitely, for sure, 100% more productive at home. But I have seen very few by top level execs stating that this is true and that it also scales to teams, divisions, etc. Even the definition of productivity seems very, very loose in these discussions - is it that an employee feels more productive because they don’t have to commute? Because they write more code or better code? Because they can do the laundry at lunch rather than outside work hours?
- kcplate 3y ago
  So where are all the studies showing that it’s better? All I ever hear is individual anecdotes claiming increased productivity and then it always centers around all sorts of individual benefits generally unrelated to productivity for your organization. i.e. “My commute”, “More time to do…” I work from home and dont want to change. I can make a case why it’s better for me, but I can’t make a case why it’s better for my employer.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Right, so that’s why I’m not asking them for productivity data. A lot of people just like working from home. It’s the companies saying that productivity has gone down, so I’m very curious: how do they know? They never seem to say. Management could say “come RTO because I prefer it that way” in which case asking for productivity data would be silly, but management doesn’t say that because it’d be unconvincing and indicative of vibe-based management.
    - kcplate 3y ago
      It’s certainly vibe based, most executive decision making to degree is. However, it’s their prerogative to manage that way. Employers have always had control over where the work is performed. As employees we can choose to not work there if the location of the work doesn’t meet our needs. More than once in my career I have worked for companies that have moved office locations. In all the cases I certainly wasn’t consulted ahead of time or given a vote. To my knowledge, no one beyond the executive leadership had a vote in the location. I am not sure why RTO vs WFH is any different.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        It’s telling that even here in this thread, the answer to “what’s the evidence” is “employers aren’t required to produce evidence.” Correct! They are obviously not required to produce evidence! But the question wasn’t “are they required to produce evidence,” it was “what’s the evidence,” and so the provided answer here amounts to “I don’t know/I don’t have any/I don’t know if they have any”
bratgpttamer 3y ago
Conspiracies are anything that contradicts or adds nuance to what the local newsman tells me on my teevee!
hesdeadjim 3y ago
And maybe work is getting done but the quality, speed, and creativity are suffering immensely. I don’t require my employees to be in office, and given that 60% of my team is non-local it’s not an option anyways. Given a magic wand I would 100% have everyone be around for at least a hybrid 3/2. There are so, so many information and communication inefficiencies that could be solved by an off the cuff 1m in-person chat. Idea generation as well. Being in a zoom occasionally and chatting on Slack is a shit replacement for this in a creative field like video game development. And to be clear, I am wildly productive remote but I’d be willing to trade 33% of that for the benefits my team would have by being in-person.
- glimshe 3y ago
  Chances is that if you used your magic wand, over time you wouldn't be able to find the best employees (as many people are refusing WFO and hybrid) and your team would suffer anyway. I think a best use of your magic wand would be for you to acquire the skills to manage a highly productive remote team.
  - hesdeadjim 3y ago
    You need to resort to insults to make a counterpoint?
    - glimshe 3y ago
      Why is this an insult? You are assuming that the problem with your team is WFH and not yourself. There are hundreds of managers with remote teams that don't need to propose hybrid work as a solution for collaboration problems. Instead of looking at yourself for the solution, you're choosing to send your poor team to the office. BTW, my highly remote teams are very productive. While some like the office, we never had to resort to mandatory attendance/hybrid to improve our communication.
      - hesdeadjim 3y ago
        You assume my issues with full-remote stem from a leadership failure. That's the insult. I've been making games for 15 years across three companies, two of which ended up full remote. I can judge the effectiveness of a team, and I can say for certain that there are some situations and needs that benefit greatly from in-person. YMMY, especially if you are not in a creative field like games where a team comp is designers, artists, and eng. all mixed in a chaotic pot.
equalsione 3y ago
‘Mike Hopkins, senior vice president of Prime Video and Amazon Studios, “I don’t have data to back it up, but I know it’s better.’ [0] Oh well then of course!!! There is no data to back it up. Managers I’ve talked to have in fact said their figures show productivity has gone up but who knows. How do you measure productivity in a knowledge economy? In the absence of a compelling argument for return to office it’s reasonable to assume this is driven by other factors. [0] https://fortune.com/2023/08/03/amazon-svp-mike-hopkins-office-return/amp/ https://fortune.com/2023/08/03/amazon-svp-mike-hopkins-offic...

Or maybe instead of a conspiracy companies are just finding work isn't getting done and although people are loudly proclaiming productivity the work isn't materializing.

Racing0461 3y ago

nah because if it was about productivity, the rto emails would emphasize that. not "helping out our neighbour restaurants and city centers"

ethanbond 3y ago

So where are all the studies showing this precipitous drop in productivity? Surely those would be cited to support RTOs right?

injb 3y ago
Why? Why would an employer care about studies? They have either seen a drop in productivity or they haven't. They couldn't care less about what other employers are experiencing.
- p_j_w 3y ago
  > They have either seen a drop in productivity or they haven't. Some of them are claiming that they have, but none have shown anything resembling evidence or numbers, there’s been nothing but hand waving about the value of water cooler talk. There’s no reason to believe a word they’re saying.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - voisin 3y ago
    Employers have no obligation to provide studies. They set the rules if they pay the salaries. Employees can choose to leave. In the end, the decisions by both will determine winners and losers. That’s a market!
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Nobody is suggesting otherwise, obviously. The conversation is about whether there is a drop in productivity and what evidence we have of it, not whether employers have an obligation to collect or share such evidence.
- hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
  I challenge you to measure the productivity of middle management.
- Johnny555 3y ago
  Without an actual formal study, I'm skeptical that an employer can accurately measure productivity. Unless of course they are in a stagnant industry where the tasks today are exactly the same as yesterday, like counting widgets built on an assembly line.
- porlb 3y ago
  Why would employees care about made up office busy work problems?
- Shalle135 3y ago
  When looking at my employer - they’re enforcing a 3/2 hybrid model during the last 6 months. Before that more or less everybody worked from home 100%. During the WFH period we had more deployments & less incidents than ever. In addition we had less sick leaves (due to tolerance being higher when WFH). Yet - the leadership is ignoring this and enforcing the hybrid model.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Because any good thinker of any sort knows that their locally experienced “vibes” are rather fallible? Because sharing these insights could help convince at least some employees to RTO? Because it’s good to have credibility and look like a sensible decision-maker in the eyes of your employees? Note: Studies includes internal studies or analysis of a company’s own performance.
Jerrrry 3y ago
They havent done them yet, the researchers are too busy 'working from home,' getting sidelined by Youtube shorts and Facebook reels for hours on end. Jokes aside, the topology of the office<->employer relationship has inverted. Productivity has fallen even further, as people get too comfortable and start to resent the lack of a "third place", or even a second one; the allure of working, playing, and leisure from the same place all day turns out to be less ideal than others prothetized. As for the middle management's productivity themselves, that is a function of their subordinates work, and their own office water cooler politics. Between unconfident, unreliable, and gamed reports of employees' activity status, and the increased difficulty of socializing horizontally, of course middle management wants a return to office. Without it, eventually they will boil themselves as it is most apparent how little management actually is needed with modern companies.
voisin 3y ago
Productivity can increase on the individual levels and decrease on the team or company level, and it can be difficult for individuals to recognize this. It also isn’t necessarily the same effect across companies. I think in these discussions everyone oversimplifies to one single conclusion that should apply to all companies in all locales and all employees. There’s way more nuance to this.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  This is a non-sequitur. Sure that’s possible, and sure it’s case by case, and sure it’s nuanced. What’s especially helpful to such nuanced and detailed debates is data. So my question is why isn’t data being brought out in support of the RTO argument? Two pretty obvious potential reasons are that they don’t have data or the data doesn’t support the argument they’re making, which reflects rather poorly on management and their decision-making. I’m personally skeptical of the explanation “they have the data and it supports their argument but they just don’t wanna show it to their employees as they beg them to come back to office.” Just makes a lot less sense than the other explanations IMO.
  - kcplate 3y ago
    > So my question is why isn’t data being brought out in support of the RTO argument? No one’s bringing out data to support WFH either, so I really don’t understand this demand. WFH at scale only has around 3 years of history where in office has decades and decades.
  - voisin 3y ago
    The only data I’ve seen supporting WFH is that some percentage of employees prefer it and will quit their job if required to go back to the office and other jobs exist that do not require the office. There are plenty of anecdotes by employees stating that they are definitely, for sure, 100% more productive at home. But I have seen very few by top level execs stating that this is true and that it also scales to teams, divisions, etc. Even the definition of productivity seems very, very loose in these discussions - is it that an employee feels more productive because they don’t have to commute? Because they write more code or better code? Because they can do the laundry at lunch rather than outside work hours?
kcplate 3y ago
So where are all the studies showing that it’s better? All I ever hear is individual anecdotes claiming increased productivity and then it always centers around all sorts of individual benefits generally unrelated to productivity for your organization. i.e. “My commute”, “More time to do…” I work from home and dont want to change. I can make a case why it’s better for me, but I can’t make a case why it’s better for my employer.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Right, so that’s why I’m not asking them for productivity data. A lot of people just like working from home. It’s the companies saying that productivity has gone down, so I’m very curious: how do they know? They never seem to say. Management could say “come RTO because I prefer it that way” in which case asking for productivity data would be silly, but management doesn’t say that because it’d be unconvincing and indicative of vibe-based management.
  - kcplate 3y ago
    It’s certainly vibe based, most executive decision making to degree is. However, it’s their prerogative to manage that way. Employers have always had control over where the work is performed. As employees we can choose to not work there if the location of the work doesn’t meet our needs. More than once in my career I have worked for companies that have moved office locations. In all the cases I certainly wasn’t consulted ahead of time or given a vote. To my knowledge, no one beyond the executive leadership had a vote in the location. I am not sure why RTO vs WFH is any different.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      It’s telling that even here in this thread, the answer to “what’s the evidence” is “employers aren’t required to produce evidence.” Correct! They are obviously not required to produce evidence! But the question wasn’t “are they required to produce evidence,” it was “what’s the evidence,” and so the provided answer here amounts to “I don’t know/I don’t have any/I don’t know if they have any”

bratgpttamer 3y ago

Conspiracies are anything that contradicts or adds nuance to what the local newsman tells me on my teevee!

hesdeadjim 3y ago

And maybe work is getting done but the quality, speed, and creativity are suffering immensely. I don’t require my employees to be in office, and given that 60% of my team is non-local it’s not an option anyways. Given a magic wand I would 100% have everyone be around for at least a hybrid 3/2. There are so, so many information and communication inefficiencies that could be solved by an off the cuff 1m in-person chat. Idea generation as well. Being in a zoom occasionally and chatting on Slack is a shit replacement for this in a creative field like video game development. And to be clear, I am wildly productive remote but I’d be willing to trade 33% of that for the benefits my team would have by being in-person.

glimshe 3y ago
Chances is that if you used your magic wand, over time you wouldn't be able to find the best employees (as many people are refusing WFO and hybrid) and your team would suffer anyway. I think a best use of your magic wand would be for you to acquire the skills to manage a highly productive remote team.
- hesdeadjim 3y ago
  You need to resort to insults to make a counterpoint?
  - glimshe 3y ago
    Why is this an insult? You are assuming that the problem with your team is WFH and not yourself. There are hundreds of managers with remote teams that don't need to propose hybrid work as a solution for collaboration problems. Instead of looking at yourself for the solution, you're choosing to send your poor team to the office. BTW, my highly remote teams are very productive. While some like the office, we never had to resort to mandatory attendance/hybrid to improve our communication.
    - hesdeadjim 3y ago
      You assume my issues with full-remote stem from a leadership failure. That's the insult. I've been making games for 15 years across three companies, two of which ended up full remote. I can judge the effectiveness of a team, and I can say for certain that there are some situations and needs that benefit greatly from in-person. YMMY, especially if you are not in a creative field like games where a team comp is designers, artists, and eng. all mixed in a chaotic pot.

equalsione 3y ago

‘Mike Hopkins, senior vice president of Prime Video and Amazon Studios, “I don’t have data to back it up, but I know it’s better.’ [0] Oh well then of course!!! There is no data to back it up. Managers I’ve talked to have in fact said their figures show productivity has gone up but who knows. How do you measure productivity in a knowledge economy? In the absence of a compelling argument for return to office it’s reasonable to assume this is driven by other factors. [0] https://fortune.com/2023/08/03/amazon-svp-mike-hopkins-office-return/amp/ https://fortune.com/2023/08/03/amazon-svp-mike-hopkins-offic...