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When I go to the post office it is filled with people shipping simple packages that could easily be handled by the machine directly next to the line, which I us

When I go to the post office it is filled with people shipping simple packages that could easily be handled by the machine directly next to the line, which I use then go drop off my package at the same counter. So yeah. People are leeches and sheep and feel some odd need to interact on simple transactions.

buffet_overflow 3y ago
I go back and forth on this, and feel similarly about self checkout. Is it better to streamline the process and lean on the technology, where staff can watch their jobs slip away, or is it better to chose the human where possible? I like a later analysis of the Butlerian Jihad from Leto II of Dune (https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad) that says > "I point out to you […] a lesson learned from past over-machined societies which you appear not to have learned. The devices themselves condition the users to employ each other the way they employ machines." The more we use machines for these “easily handled” use cases, the more we tend to expect machine interfaces for more interactions, and at some levels, I think that’s dangerous.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  The way I see it, using those machines is labor that people usually get paid for. I don't want to do that labor for free. Furthermore, the professional cashiers are faster at it than the general public. They make fewer errors and are empowered to correct more errors themselves instead of waiting for somebody else to walk over and clear the error. Furthermore, checkout and bagging can be done in parallel which is faster than doing both yourself. The only upside to self-checkout is lower labor expenses for the store. That turns into profit for the shareholders, not savings for the customers, so I don't care about that. And I guess maybe some people don't like the social interaction implied by human cashiers, but if you're not in the mood for that you can just keep your eyes down and grunt or something. Cashiers are used to people who don't want small-talk, they can generally take a hint.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Are you in the USA? I ask because that is mainly where I see complaints about having to do the cashier’s work. And I think that has to do with how grocery shopping is done in the USA: people drive up in their cars and buy a huge amount of groceries at once, so there is a lot to scan. Moreover, sometimes the bagging had been historically done by paid staff, so people weren’t used to doing it themselves. But as someone shopping in Europe, I have never felt using self-checkout burdensome, because I’m usually just getting a few items for that evening or the next couple of days. Using the touchscreen is pure muscle memory, and the advantage of being able to listen to headphones or avoid social interaction outweighs the very slight inconvenience of ringing up my own purchases. Moreover, the queues for self-checkout are always shorter now than for the human cashiers.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      I am in the USA but my grocery store trips are not at all like you describe. I walk to the grocery store, collect groceries in a single basket and have them loaded into one or two bags which I walk home with. I do this 1 to 3 times a week. No matter the quantity of groceries, a professional can ring it up faster than I can. > Moreover, sometimes the bagging had been historically done by paid staff, so people weren’t used to doing it themselves Sometimes, but usually there is something like a 1:5 ratio (or lower) of baggers to cashiers so bagging your own while the cashier rings you up has always been common. The way I see it, bagging isn't really a real job, usually the store hires mentally disabled people to do it as a sort of charity to the community (also the feds pay half of their wages.) Anyway, bagging is easy. I don't have to deal with an obtuse machine to put some stuff in a bag.
nicolas_t 3y ago
In most western countries, there's a high amount of unemployment for people who do relatively unskilled jobs. When people use he automated check-out in shops or the machines in the post office instead of the human worker, usually what happens is that either people are fired or contracts are not renewed as there's less need for human employees. This then directly leads to more unemployment for unskilled workers. Since I'd rather those unskilled workers be actually doing a job [1] rather than my taxes paying for them to be on welfare while being disgruntled that they don't have a job, I purposefully do not use automated check out or do not use the machines. Of course you can keep thinking that everyone who doesn't do the same thing you do are leeches or sheep and don't actually have a clear reason for why they do it but maybe try and learn to keep an open mind and be more empathetic about the world. [1] Assuming the shops passes the savings of having automated checkouts to their customers, I would be paying slightly more to subsidize their salary (of course, I'm rather doubtful that the shops would pass on the savings)
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  I suspect that the amount of people using self-checkout expressly to avoid human interaction (one can listen to music or a podcast without interruption, or one is simply unsocial) exceeds those who are avoiding self-checkout for your idealistic reasons. In my view, just bring on UBI already.
  - nicolas_t 3y ago
    Oh absolutely agreed for the UBI. Unfortunately I don't see it happening anytime soon. But there's also a question I've always had about UBI. If someone works as a cashier let's say, it might not be an amazing job, but there's still some feeling of fulfillment of being part of society, of working, of getting to know regulars at the small supermarket you work at (for the smaller city sized grocery stores, not talking about the huge american superstores). Would having UBI but not having a job be fulfilling, would people feel excluded from society even if they have enough to have a decent enough standard of living? And yes, I know, plus self checkout is generally faster especially since a lot of supermarkets now only have less checkout lanes. So, most people will chose convenience and avoiding human interactions over ideals. I just wanted to explain to the OP that is assumption that people who decide not to use automated checkouts or automated shipping label creation might not be because they are sheeps or leeches.
cafard 3y ago
So that if I wish to pay cash for shipping it's because I'm a leech and/or a sheep? I haven't used the machines since they went credit card only.

buffet_overflow 3y ago

I go back and forth on this, and feel similarly about self checkout. Is it better to streamline the process and lean on the technology, where staff can watch their jobs slip away, or is it better to chose the human where possible? I like a later analysis of the Butlerian Jihad from Leto II of Dune (https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad) that says > "I point out to you […] a lesson learned from past over-machined societies which you appear not to have learned. The devices themselves condition the users to employ each other the way they employ machines." The more we use machines for these “easily handled” use cases, the more we tend to expect machine interfaces for more interactions, and at some levels, I think that’s dangerous.

mcpackieh 3y ago
The way I see it, using those machines is labor that people usually get paid for. I don't want to do that labor for free. Furthermore, the professional cashiers are faster at it than the general public. They make fewer errors and are empowered to correct more errors themselves instead of waiting for somebody else to walk over and clear the error. Furthermore, checkout and bagging can be done in parallel which is faster than doing both yourself. The only upside to self-checkout is lower labor expenses for the store. That turns into profit for the shareholders, not savings for the customers, so I don't care about that. And I guess maybe some people don't like the social interaction implied by human cashiers, but if you're not in the mood for that you can just keep your eyes down and grunt or something. Cashiers are used to people who don't want small-talk, they can generally take a hint.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Are you in the USA? I ask because that is mainly where I see complaints about having to do the cashier’s work. And I think that has to do with how grocery shopping is done in the USA: people drive up in their cars and buy a huge amount of groceries at once, so there is a lot to scan. Moreover, sometimes the bagging had been historically done by paid staff, so people weren’t used to doing it themselves. But as someone shopping in Europe, I have never felt using self-checkout burdensome, because I’m usually just getting a few items for that evening or the next couple of days. Using the touchscreen is pure muscle memory, and the advantage of being able to listen to headphones or avoid social interaction outweighs the very slight inconvenience of ringing up my own purchases. Moreover, the queues for self-checkout are always shorter now than for the human cashiers.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    I am in the USA but my grocery store trips are not at all like you describe. I walk to the grocery store, collect groceries in a single basket and have them loaded into one or two bags which I walk home with. I do this 1 to 3 times a week. No matter the quantity of groceries, a professional can ring it up faster than I can. > Moreover, sometimes the bagging had been historically done by paid staff, so people weren’t used to doing it themselves Sometimes, but usually there is something like a 1:5 ratio (or lower) of baggers to cashiers so bagging your own while the cashier rings you up has always been common. The way I see it, bagging isn't really a real job, usually the store hires mentally disabled people to do it as a sort of charity to the community (also the feds pay half of their wages.) Anyway, bagging is easy. I don't have to deal with an obtuse machine to put some stuff in a bag.

nicolas_t 3y ago

In most western countries, there's a high amount of unemployment for people who do relatively unskilled jobs. When people use he automated check-out in shops or the machines in the post office instead of the human worker, usually what happens is that either people are fired or contracts are not renewed as there's less need for human employees. This then directly leads to more unemployment for unskilled workers. Since I'd rather those unskilled workers be actually doing a job [1] rather than my taxes paying for them to be on welfare while being disgruntled that they don't have a job, I purposefully do not use automated check out or do not use the machines. Of course you can keep thinking that everyone who doesn't do the same thing you do are leeches or sheep and don't actually have a clear reason for why they do it but maybe try and learn to keep an open mind and be more empathetic about the world. [1] Assuming the shops passes the savings of having automated checkouts to their customers, I would be paying slightly more to subsidize their salary (of course, I'm rather doubtful that the shops would pass on the savings)

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
I suspect that the amount of people using self-checkout expressly to avoid human interaction (one can listen to music or a podcast without interruption, or one is simply unsocial) exceeds those who are avoiding self-checkout for your idealistic reasons. In my view, just bring on UBI already.
- nicolas_t 3y ago
  Oh absolutely agreed for the UBI. Unfortunately I don't see it happening anytime soon. But there's also a question I've always had about UBI. If someone works as a cashier let's say, it might not be an amazing job, but there's still some feeling of fulfillment of being part of society, of working, of getting to know regulars at the small supermarket you work at (for the smaller city sized grocery stores, not talking about the huge american superstores). Would having UBI but not having a job be fulfilling, would people feel excluded from society even if they have enough to have a decent enough standard of living? And yes, I know, plus self checkout is generally faster especially since a lot of supermarkets now only have less checkout lanes. So, most people will chose convenience and avoiding human interactions over ideals. I just wanted to explain to the OP that is assumption that people who decide not to use automated checkouts or automated shipping label creation might not be because they are sheeps or leeches.

cafard 3y ago

So that if I wish to pay cash for shipping it's because I'm a leech and/or a sheep? I haven't used the machines since they went credit card only.