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edit: I'm retracting my earlier comment. Earlier I wrote that the headline didn't seem to match what was in the TOS, since OP never mentioned which part they're

by jxf 3y ago

edit: I'm retracting my earlier comment. Earlier I wrote that the headline didn't seem to match what was in the TOS, since OP never mentioned which part they're concerned about. I'm now assuming the part they don't like is §10.4(ii): > 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights required or necessary to redistribute, publish, import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works, and process Customer Content and to perform all acts with respect to the Customer Content: [...] _(ii) for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence, training, testing, improvement of the Services, Software, or Zoom’s other products, services, and software, or any combination thereof_ Notice that 10.4(ii) says they can use Customer Content "for ... machine learning, artificial intelligence, training", which is certainly allowing training on user content.

gunapologist99 3y ago
Good catch jxf! but what is that boundary line between SGD and Customer Input/Content? Is it blurry or clearly defined? It seems like things like translations or future enhancements might fall into that area (it also seems like training AI on diags isn't as useful), so this might be expanded in the future now that they have that language in place.
- westcort 3y ago
  It is defined not at all. Sorry if this is bad for your investment decisions, jxf, but this company is not trustworthy.
  - jxf 3y ago
    I don't have any positions in Zoom (although I did have some puts last year that I've since closed out).
westcort 3y ago
You will have to excuse me if I don’t trust a company that kicks off users at the behest of the PRC! https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/11/zoom-admits-to-shutting-down-activist-accounts-at-the-request-of-the-chinese-government/amp/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/11/zoom-admits-to-shutting-do... Quibbles over the definition of phrases like “Customer Content” and “Service Generated Data” are designed to obfuscate meaning and confuse readers to think that the headline is wrong. It is not wrong. This company does what it wants to, obviously, given it’s complicity with a regime that is currently engaging in genocide. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp Why do you trust them to generate an AI model of your appearance and voice that could be used to destroy your life? I don’t.
- jxf 3y ago
  I'm not rendering an opinion here about the trustworthiness of Zoom. I'm simply saying that the plain reading of the TOS is the opposite of what the headline on this post claims.
  - westcort 3y ago
    The definition of phrases like “Customer Content” and “Service Generated Data” are unclear. It is disingenuous to say that the headline is the “opposite” of what the headline suggests. You really think that the engineers in China are not actively working on developing AI models of users without using a lot of user content to feed the model? Doubtful. Hiding behind ill-defined terms has the fingerprints of an Orwellian regime. I think I know which one.
- throwaway2990 3y ago
  Well it’s a Chinese company. So they are beholden to the CCP.
  - eh9 3y ago
    Zoom? A company publicly traded on the Nasdaq and funded in San Jose, CA?
jsnell 3y ago
But it is saying that your customer content may be used for training AI, in 10.4: > 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights required or necessary to redistribute, publish, import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works, and process Customer Content and to perform all acts with respect to the Customer Content: (i) as may be necessary for Zoom to provide the Services to you, including to support the Services; (ii) for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence, [...]
- j45 3y ago
  Wow. I hope the op just didn’t read that far.
  - TheRealPomax 3y ago
    hitting "search" in your browser and typing "artificial intelligence" doesn't really require reading the whole thing ;)
    - j45 3y ago
      Seemed odd that there was so much details refuting it on the points prior to 10.4 Maybe its just a coincidence. Or maybe it’s two angles perfectly coinciding.
- jxf 3y ago
  You're right. I retracted the comment and edited to reflect this point.
- kortex 3y ago
  > You agree to grant and hereby grant I get that legalese is like human-interpretable pseudocode, but like, is there really no better way to word this? How can you grant without agreeing to grant? > import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works Wow this cover of Daft Punk - Technologic sucks. I, for one, do not welcome our dystopian overlords, but am at a loss to what I can do about it. I try to use Jitsi or anything not-zoom whenever possible, but it's rarely my pick.
throwaway2990 3y ago
> But it doesn't say that Customer Content is being used to train AI; it says that Zoom can do whatever it wants with Service Generated Data. Customer recordings are service generated content.
j45 3y ago
Except it’s a few steps away from customer input and customer content. Sounds like it can eventually include chats during a call. Sounds like it can eventually include the files of your meeting recordings in its processing, since it is a file. A call recording stored to your zoom cloud can be a form of service generated data from calls. And sounds like it include transcripts of live audio could also function as service generated data (was the audio clear? Could ai convert speech to text?) The statistics of calls could turn into the wavelengths of the audio and video in real time. Gotta keep an eye on the quality with AI. My only question is if this include the paid users? If so, I had been meaning to move on from Zoom as a paid customer and this may have done it. It’s not end to end encryption if Zoom can tap into your files on your cloud or computer. Or let you pretend you are providing the other party with encryption when they aren’t safe. Corporate information is valuable to some.
dennyabraham 3y ago
> You agree that Zoom compiles and may compile Service Generated Data based on Customer Content and use of the Services and Software. This clause reads like the distinction is less about the contents and more about zoom's rights to use any content
pseudotrash 3y ago
And I'm supposed to trust then? The company that recently disabled security controls of the OS as a growth hacking technique?
Terretta 3y ago
Since this is a legal language discussion, worth noting your quoted portion might not say what you said it explicitly says: > Service Generated Data; Consent to Use. Customer Content does not include any telemetry data, product usage data, diagnostic data, and similar content or data that Zoom collects or generates in connection with your or your End Users’ use of the Services or Software (“Service Generated Data”). Notice that Service Generated Data quite explicitly doesn't include Customer Content. On the contrary, it says Customer Content doesn't include service generated data. So you don't have rights to the telemetry or anything else they collect. It does not say Service Generated Data doesn't include their own copies of customer content, which could be a part of "data Zoom collects .. in connection with your .. use".
proxiful-wash 3y ago
Who in their right mind would use Zoom as a service. My employees will never connect to another conference call with a third party that uses zoom again, ever.
- hairofadog 3y ago
  I appreciate your sentiment but sometimes there’s immense pressure to use it because it’s what everyone else is using, and refusing would cause a meeting to be disrupted (or force you not to attend).
  - neltnerb 3y ago
    But sometimes legal has the trump card in terms of dictating company policy, and having confidential information laundered into the public domain via training on "customer content" seems like a very red line.
neltnerb 3y ago
Yeah, I saw some people posting screenshots of 10.2 and was thinking maybe it was just exaggeration for clicks, but 10.4 is horrifying. Customer Content as defined in 10.1: "10.1 Customer Content. You or your End Users may provide, upload, or originate data, content, files, documents, or other materials (collectively, “Customer Input”) in accessing or using the Services or Software, and Zoom may provide, create, or make available to you, in its sole discretion or as part of the Services, certain derivatives, transcripts, analytics, outputs, visual displays, or data sets resulting from the Customer Input (together with Customer Input, “Customer Content”); provided, however, that no Customer Content provided, created, or made available by Zoom results in any conveyance, assignment, or other transfer of Zoom’s Proprietary Rights contained or embodied in the Services, Software, or other technology used to provide, create, or make available any Customer Content in any way and Zoom retains all Proprietary Rights therein. You further acknowledge that any Customer Content provided, created, or made available to you by Zoom is for your or your End Users’ use solely in connection with use of the Services, and that you are solely responsible for Customer Content."
- neodypsis 3y ago
  Yikes, and to think some schools force people to use Zoom...
Animats 3y ago
Notice that "marketing" is in there. Microsoft claims the right to listen in on all your Zoom calls and use that data for marketing purposes.
brunes 3y ago
You are misreading and misunderstanding this whole paragraph. The purpose of 10.4 is to allow zoom to send your call to other services, like say YouTube for live streaming, or any of the dozens of other services that integrate with their APIs. Without 10.4, three quarters or more of Zooms use cases would no longer work.

by jxf 3y ago

gunapologist99 3y ago

Good catch jxf! but what is that boundary line between SGD and Customer Input/Content? Is it blurry or clearly defined? It seems like things like translations or future enhancements might fall into that area (it also seems like training AI on diags isn't as useful), so this might be expanded in the future now that they have that language in place.

westcort 3y ago
It is defined not at all. Sorry if this is bad for your investment decisions, jxf, but this company is not trustworthy.
- jxf 3y ago
  I don't have any positions in Zoom (although I did have some puts last year that I've since closed out).

westcort 3y ago

You will have to excuse me if I don’t trust a company that kicks off users at the behest of the PRC! https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/11/zoom-admits-to-shutting-down-activist-accounts-at-the-request-of-the-chinese-government/amp/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/11/zoom-admits-to-shutting-do... Quibbles over the definition of phrases like “Customer Content” and “Service Generated Data” are designed to obfuscate meaning and confuse readers to think that the headline is wrong. It is not wrong. This company does what it wants to, obviously, given it’s complicity with a regime that is currently engaging in genocide. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp Why do you trust them to generate an AI model of your appearance and voice that could be used to destroy your life? I don’t.

jxf 3y ago
I'm not rendering an opinion here about the trustworthiness of Zoom. I'm simply saying that the plain reading of the TOS is the opposite of what the headline on this post claims.
- westcort 3y ago
  The definition of phrases like “Customer Content” and “Service Generated Data” are unclear. It is disingenuous to say that the headline is the “opposite” of what the headline suggests. You really think that the engineers in China are not actively working on developing AI models of users without using a lot of user content to feed the model? Doubtful. Hiding behind ill-defined terms has the fingerprints of an Orwellian regime. I think I know which one.
throwaway2990 3y ago
Well it’s a Chinese company. So they are beholden to the CCP.
- eh9 3y ago
  Zoom? A company publicly traded on the Nasdaq and funded in San Jose, CA?

jsnell 3y ago

But it is saying that your customer content may be used for training AI, in 10.4: > 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights required or necessary to redistribute, publish, import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works, and process Customer Content and to perform all acts with respect to the Customer Content: (i) as may be necessary for Zoom to provide the Services to you, including to support the Services; (ii) for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence, [...]

j45 3y ago
Wow. I hope the op just didn’t read that far.
- TheRealPomax 3y ago
  hitting "search" in your browser and typing "artificial intelligence" doesn't really require reading the whole thing ;)
  - j45 3y ago
    Seemed odd that there was so much details refuting it on the points prior to 10.4 Maybe its just a coincidence. Or maybe it’s two angles perfectly coinciding.
jxf 3y ago
You're right. I retracted the comment and edited to reflect this point.
kortex 3y ago
> You agree to grant and hereby grant I get that legalese is like human-interpretable pseudocode, but like, is there really no better way to word this? How can you grant without agreeing to grant? > import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works Wow this cover of Daft Punk - Technologic sucks. I, for one, do not welcome our dystopian overlords, but am at a loss to what I can do about it. I try to use Jitsi or anything not-zoom whenever possible, but it's rarely my pick.

throwaway2990 3y ago

> But it doesn't say that Customer Content is being used to train AI; it says that Zoom can do whatever it wants with Service Generated Data. Customer recordings are service generated content.

j45 3y ago

Except it’s a few steps away from customer input and customer content. Sounds like it can eventually include chats during a call. Sounds like it can eventually include the files of your meeting recordings in its processing, since it is a file. A call recording stored to your zoom cloud can be a form of service generated data from calls. And sounds like it include transcripts of live audio could also function as service generated data (was the audio clear? Could ai convert speech to text?) The statistics of calls could turn into the wavelengths of the audio and video in real time. Gotta keep an eye on the quality with AI. My only question is if this include the paid users? If so, I had been meaning to move on from Zoom as a paid customer and this may have done it. It’s not end to end encryption if Zoom can tap into your files on your cloud or computer. Or let you pretend you are providing the other party with encryption when they aren’t safe. Corporate information is valuable to some.

dennyabraham 3y ago

> You agree that Zoom compiles and may compile Service Generated Data based on Customer Content and use of the Services and Software. This clause reads like the distinction is less about the contents and more about zoom's rights to use any content

pseudotrash 3y ago

And I'm supposed to trust then? The company that recently disabled security controls of the OS as a growth hacking technique?

Terretta 3y ago

Since this is a legal language discussion, worth noting your quoted portion might not say what you said it explicitly says: > Service Generated Data; Consent to Use. Customer Content does not include any telemetry data, product usage data, diagnostic data, and similar content or data that Zoom collects or generates in connection with your or your End Users’ use of the Services or Software (“Service Generated Data”). Notice that Service Generated Data quite explicitly doesn't include Customer Content. On the contrary, it says Customer Content doesn't include service generated data. So you don't have rights to the telemetry or anything else they collect. It does not say Service Generated Data doesn't include their own copies of customer content, which could be a part of "data Zoom collects .. in connection with your .. use".

proxiful-wash 3y ago

Who in their right mind would use Zoom as a service. My employees will never connect to another conference call with a third party that uses zoom again, ever.

hairofadog 3y ago
I appreciate your sentiment but sometimes there’s immense pressure to use it because it’s what everyone else is using, and refusing would cause a meeting to be disrupted (or force you not to attend).
- neltnerb 3y ago
  But sometimes legal has the trump card in terms of dictating company policy, and having confidential information laundered into the public domain via training on "customer content" seems like a very red line.

neltnerb 3y ago

Yeah, I saw some people posting screenshots of 10.2 and was thinking maybe it was just exaggeration for clicks, but 10.4 is horrifying. Customer Content as defined in 10.1: "10.1 Customer Content. You or your End Users may provide, upload, or originate data, content, files, documents, or other materials (collectively, “Customer Input”) in accessing or using the Services or Software, and Zoom may provide, create, or make available to you, in its sole discretion or as part of the Services, certain derivatives, transcripts, analytics, outputs, visual displays, or data sets resulting from the Customer Input (together with Customer Input, “Customer Content”); provided, however, that no Customer Content provided, created, or made available by Zoom results in any conveyance, assignment, or other transfer of Zoom’s Proprietary Rights contained or embodied in the Services, Software, or other technology used to provide, create, or make available any Customer Content in any way and Zoom retains all Proprietary Rights therein. You further acknowledge that any Customer Content provided, created, or made available to you by Zoom is for your or your End Users’ use solely in connection with use of the Services, and that you are solely responsible for Customer Content."

neodypsis 3y ago
Yikes, and to think some schools force people to use Zoom...

Animats 3y ago

Notice that "marketing" is in there. Microsoft claims the right to listen in on all your Zoom calls and use that data for marketing purposes.

brunes 3y ago

You are misreading and misunderstanding this whole paragraph. The purpose of 10.4 is to allow zoom to send your call to other services, like say YouTube for live streaming, or any of the dozens of other services that integrate with their APIs. Without 10.4, three quarters or more of Zooms use cases would no longer work.