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> I think cities looking to make better public transit should copy the Seattle model rather than the NYC model What is the “Seattle model” vs. “NYC model”? Th

> I think cities looking to make better public transit should copy the Seattle model rather than the NYC model What is the “Seattle model” vs. “NYC model”? They are vastly different places. For one, NYC has over 3x—and Manhattan over 8x—the population density of Seattle. Many times in NYC, the subway is as fast or faster than a car. Folks often complain their “schedule is at the mercy” of a train, but forget that the same is true of car travel with traffic, road closures, etc. Don’t get me wrong: there are a lot of things about NYCT that suck, but being worse than car travel in NYC (for areas with subway service) is not one of them. And yes, NYC needs a better bike experience. Still, Citi Bike had 114,000 rides per day last month (a far cry from ~3 million weekday subway rides).

cbHXBY1D 3y ago
Creating a robust bus network with dedicated bus lanes vs an extensive rail system. I've also lived in both cities and Seattle's buses are timely and clean. MTA buses are much, much worse.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  In general, for a big city, you need _both_; there is only so far you can push the capacity of a bus lane (even the most ambitious BRT lanes are really only comparable to trams, not heavy metro rail, capacity wise), but it’s not feasible to serve everywhere with rail. You also ideally want simple interchange between them. One thing we did in Dublin that greatly improved intermodal journeys was a travel card that works across everything. You tap it on rail/bus/tram, you’re debited 2 eur, and anything else you get on in the next 90 minutes, you’re charged nothing. This replaced a baroquely complex staging system, and it’s amazing how much simpler it has made things.
- amarshall 3y ago
  If everyone riding the NYC subway every day took a bus instead, it would need over 3x the bus capacity (2022 subway ridership was 1B, buses were 425M). Personally, I don’t think that’s going to make bus timeliness any better, even with more dedicated bus lanes. The answer is likely that we just need way fewer cars in the way even now. Have a look at 14th St. as an example.
Shawnj2 3y ago
Everyone should really be copying Hong Kong, where subways are the main method of transportation for most people, not just poor people and they’re phenomenal.
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  Honk Kong, Taipei, Beijing or Tokyo have top notch subways, but people there are very respectful and organised, which is quite different than Europe or the US, for instance . Also, they built their network very late, and weren't constrained by the existing infra.
  - Shawnj2 3y ago
    Respect isn’t the issue, having the proper finding to offer a high quality service is.
codekansas 3y ago
The "schedule at the mercy" issue has more to do with really bad estimates of commute times. The bus rapid transit in Seattle has good estimates so even though it might be slower it is at least predictable. My understanding is that MTA's ancient switching system can't be effectively computerized, hence the poor estimates. Citi Bike ridership indicates a lot of pent up demand for missing-middle transit, but the execution is pretty bad compared to on-demand bikes in Seattle (although I haven't been back there in a few years and I've heard it's gotten worse there too, so, grain of salt). The electric Citi Bikes are chronically unavailable, meaning you're stuck with huge clunkers that make you work up a sweat at the first hill. Also it can cost 2-3x as much as the bus or metro for a single trip. It makes way more sense to own your own bike, but that still doesn't fix the fact that half your trips invariably contain some section of "cross this four lane road without a marked bike lane".

cbHXBY1D 3y ago

Creating a robust bus network with dedicated bus lanes vs an extensive rail system. I've also lived in both cities and Seattle's buses are timely and clean. MTA buses are much, much worse.

rsynnott 3y ago
In general, for a big city, you need _both_; there is only so far you can push the capacity of a bus lane (even the most ambitious BRT lanes are really only comparable to trams, not heavy metro rail, capacity wise), but it’s not feasible to serve everywhere with rail. You also ideally want simple interchange between them. One thing we did in Dublin that greatly improved intermodal journeys was a travel card that works across everything. You tap it on rail/bus/tram, you’re debited 2 eur, and anything else you get on in the next 90 minutes, you’re charged nothing. This replaced a baroquely complex staging system, and it’s amazing how much simpler it has made things.
amarshall 3y ago
If everyone riding the NYC subway every day took a bus instead, it would need over 3x the bus capacity (2022 subway ridership was 1B, buses were 425M). Personally, I don’t think that’s going to make bus timeliness any better, even with more dedicated bus lanes. The answer is likely that we just need way fewer cars in the way even now. Have a look at 14th St. as an example.

Shawnj2 3y ago

Everyone should really be copying Hong Kong, where subways are the main method of transportation for most people, not just poor people and they’re phenomenal.

Kretinsky 3y ago
Honk Kong, Taipei, Beijing or Tokyo have top notch subways, but people there are very respectful and organised, which is quite different than Europe or the US, for instance . Also, they built their network very late, and weren't constrained by the existing infra.
- Shawnj2 3y ago
  Respect isn’t the issue, having the proper finding to offer a high quality service is.

codekansas 3y ago

The "schedule at the mercy" issue has more to do with really bad estimates of commute times. The bus rapid transit in Seattle has good estimates so even though it might be slower it is at least predictable. My understanding is that MTA's ancient switching system can't be effectively computerized, hence the poor estimates. Citi Bike ridership indicates a lot of pent up demand for missing-middle transit, but the execution is pretty bad compared to on-demand bikes in Seattle (although I haven't been back there in a few years and I've heard it's gotten worse there too, so, grain of salt). The electric Citi Bikes are chronically unavailable, meaning you're stuck with huge clunkers that make you work up a sweat at the first hill. Also it can cost 2-3x as much as the bus or metro for a single trip. It makes way more sense to own your own bike, but that still doesn't fix the fact that half your trips invariably contain some section of "cross this four lane road without a marked bike lane".