5 ms·

My mom's (then) boyfriend sold his car back in '96. He was a science man but not on a particularly number-hard field (veterinarian). He still ran the numbers.

by fer 3y ago

My mom's (then) boyfriend sold his car back in '96. He was a science man but not on a particularly number-hard field (veterinarian). He still ran the numbers. I was too young to fully understand but basically accounting for every cost it was cheaper to call a cab or rent a car for every situation that actually requires a private vehicle, plus it saved loads of time overall (repairs, maintenance, checks, cleaning...) and headaches in general. The discussion stuck to me, and I'm always amazed at how it became a realization for so many people decades after. Granted, this was Western Europe where public transit is ages ahead of most of the US.

jacquesm 3y ago
Since the privatization of public transport it has declined considerably, especially in rural areas. This is one of the reasons why I think things like public transport should always be a government affair and never be run at a profit.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  In Ireland about a decade ago we privatised about 15% of the existing Dublin bus network. And... no-one noticed; the old state monopoly and the new private company now run buses under the livery of a new state organisation, TFI, which sets fares and dictates routes. Quite why the private company wanted anything to do with this is slightly unclear to me. The incentive for Dublin Bus was... possibly simplification of operations? They seem to have taken the opportunity to more or less entirely get rid of their single decker buses. But, so far so... good? It's working surprisingly well so far, though I do find the routes operated by the private company a little less reliable than the Dublin Bus ones. It probably helped that this was done as part of an overall expansion, not just a re-allocation; Dublin Bus lost about 15% of its fleet but got replacements; AFAIK it kept all its drivers.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Nice to see a success story. Here in NL it is the other way around. We used to have fantastic public transport, and then, since the 90's ever expanding privatization which means that 100's of local bus lines have been cancelled and the only places that have good public transport are the places that need them the least. Old people in rural areas are in real trouble, more so because the same has happened to healthcare which in turn led to a whole wave of hospital closures. And that doesn't seem to have ended. Highly annoying because it was those old people in the first place that helped to pay for all of the infra we use daily. The end result of 4 liberal conservative cabinets in sequence.
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      Caveat: I just looked it up, and there are a lot of complaints about one of the privatised routes.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Gigachad 3y ago
I did the same math and decided I wouldn’t buy a car since I could just use Uber when I need one. Turns out I never use Uber anyway since I live near a train station and major bus stop, I can get anywhere from public transport easily.
- ghaff 3y ago
  It's very dependent on local public transit, whether you reasonably have to use a private car of some sort (whether you drive it or someone else does) for commuting to work etc., and your general lifestyle (i.e. if your car needs are to drive somewhere on the odd weekend or so, maybe a Zipcar now and then to visit someone, or the odd roadtrip when you can just get a rental you can probably get by without a car).
- michaelcampbell 3y ago
  I'm sure not all, but I feel so many of these calculations do not include how much is your time worth, which unlike money you can't make more of. I'm in a sub-sub-urb of a big city in the US so a car is a necessity; I don't like it, but it's what it is. But even if I lived near a train station (and I have used them in the UK, New York, and Western Europe), not having a car is still a cost in time. How much I never put to paper, but it's not zero. (I'm also discounting the cost and hassle of having a car in a "big city" - when I lived in NY, no way I'd own a car there.)
  - acdha 3y ago
    This is true but cuts both ways: car owners spend time dealing with maintenance and repairs, parking, etc. It very much depends on where you live but one thing I’ve noticed is that most drivers are chronically late because they’re thinking of the time spent driving on roads, not actual door-to-door travel time including things like the time they spent looking for a more subsidized parking spot or waiting for other drivers to leave. The other thing is quality of life. Walking, biking, and even using transit are better for your health – the first two can meet your exercise needs - and they all allow you to do something other than sit immobile looking at a tailpipe, so you have to make a fuzzy comparison in many cases. Where I live, driving can be as fast as riding a bike if you’re lucky on traffic but even if I take transit it’s only like 10 minutes slower so I’d have to weight 30 minutes of reading and 15 minutes of walking against 25 minutes of driving.
rsynnott 3y ago
I never got around to learning to drive (always worked in Dublin, and moved into the city centre after college), and was quite shocked to discover just _how_ much people were spending on it (for instance, apparently avg price of a new car here is 35k; I'd have guessed maybe 10-15 if you'd asked me)? Of course, there are tradeoffs there; my house cost a _lot_ more than a house in the middle of nowhere, certainly. But all in all I'm glad I avoided tethering myself to a car (I do plan to learn at some point, as it feels like the sort of thing I should be able to do before I'm 40, but I can't see myself actually buying one).
- pmarreck 3y ago
  To your point, the people who use/think they need cars probably have a lot of misconceptions about not having them. But at least they’ve both had and have not had cars. Not to your point, if you’ve never had a car or even experienced the joys of driving itself or simply being able to go far away on a moment’s notice, your “gladness” of its avoidance may ring as hollow as the blind individual who is “glad” they aren’t bound to the tyranny of visual entertainments. I mean, that’s a nice story you’re telling yourself, but do you really have to information to know? In particular, once you have children, a vehicle becomes a near-necessity anywhere outside a city.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    > simply being able to go far away on a moment’s notice Buy intercity bus ticket on internet, 15 minute bus journey to where the intercity buses congregate, get on bus. Or train, but Irish Rail likes to charge roughly 2x as much for same-day intercity tickets as next day. Now, if you want to go to the middle of nowhere, that's harder, I suppose, but towns and cities are easy enough (caveat: Ireland's transport system is rather poorly designed and ~everything radiates out of Dublin, so this probably only works well if you live _in_ Dublin). As I say, I do plan to get around to learning to drive at some point (my last attempt was foiled by covid; I got a provisional license in Feb 2020), but honestly it's hard to prioritise. Kids would be more of an issue, granted. I mostly walked or got the bus to school, but I do think that’s less common these days. As a late-30s gay man, not something I have to personally worry about too much, tho.
roenxi 3y ago
And that is only on the personal level. The hypothetical societal benefits from tightening up streets and houses (no need for a garage) are probably big too. Hard to realise once a city is built though. Just look at the amount of prime land locked up for traffic. It is pretty amazing to think about how much dead space there is in a typical city.
2-718-281-828 3y ago
this submission is not about individual cost of a car but overall societal cost of people using cars.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Well, it touches on both; it’s claim is that the per capita common cost is more than the per capita user cost.
noogle 3y ago
I had the opposite experience: using taxis/Uber/Lyft was far more expensive than owning a car so after Uber stopped subsidizing rides I had to buy a vehicle. That was in a city with a metro system, living in one of its main boroughs. Even today, a cab to anywhere (even 3 miles) would cost me at least $10 each direction, and we have at least 5 such trips weekly. This easily surpasses the cost of the car, including depreciation and fuel.
- thatfrenchguy 3y ago
  $10 each way is $100 a week, a car’s going to cost you more than $400 a month?
  - joshspankit 3y ago
    More than $400/mo wouldn’t be surprising if the true cost is calculated over a year. Insurance, parts, maintenance, gas, putting the winter tires on, etc, etc, etc.
  - noogle 3y ago
    No. A car can cost much less than $400. Hence I own a car instead of taking taxis.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I own a car and I need one where I live. But I question that owning a car can cost much less than $4800 a year given insurance, maintenance, gas, fees, and other costs. As a purely financial decision, I'd trade for a driver if that were my real cost.
DrWeevilJammer 3y ago
Yes, Western Europe is definitely "streets ahead" of the US in public transportation. One thing to note though is that costs can be drastically lower if you a) buy used, and b) learn how to do most maintenance yourself. Most things that typically go wrong with a vehicle aren't that difficult to fix, and parts aren't that expensive, but a mechanic's hourly labor costs tend to add up very quickly.

by fer 3y ago

jacquesm 3y ago

Since the privatization of public transport it has declined considerably, especially in rural areas. This is one of the reasons why I think things like public transport should always be a government affair and never be run at a profit.

rsynnott 3y ago
In Ireland about a decade ago we privatised about 15% of the existing Dublin bus network. And... no-one noticed; the old state monopoly and the new private company now run buses under the livery of a new state organisation, TFI, which sets fares and dictates routes. Quite why the private company wanted anything to do with this is slightly unclear to me. The incentive for Dublin Bus was... possibly simplification of operations? They seem to have taken the opportunity to more or less entirely get rid of their single decker buses. But, so far so... good? It's working surprisingly well so far, though I do find the routes operated by the private company a little less reliable than the Dublin Bus ones. It probably helped that this was done as part of an overall expansion, not just a re-allocation; Dublin Bus lost about 15% of its fleet but got replacements; AFAIK it kept all its drivers.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Nice to see a success story. Here in NL it is the other way around. We used to have fantastic public transport, and then, since the 90's ever expanding privatization which means that 100's of local bus lines have been cancelled and the only places that have good public transport are the places that need them the least. Old people in rural areas are in real trouble, more so because the same has happened to healthcare which in turn led to a whole wave of hospital closures. And that doesn't seem to have ended. Highly annoying because it was those old people in the first place that helped to pay for all of the infra we use daily. The end result of 4 liberal conservative cabinets in sequence.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Caveat: I just looked it up, and there are a lot of complaints about one of the privatised routes.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Gigachad 3y ago

I did the same math and decided I wouldn’t buy a car since I could just use Uber when I need one. Turns out I never use Uber anyway since I live near a train station and major bus stop, I can get anywhere from public transport easily.

ghaff 3y ago
It's very dependent on local public transit, whether you reasonably have to use a private car of some sort (whether you drive it or someone else does) for commuting to work etc., and your general lifestyle (i.e. if your car needs are to drive somewhere on the odd weekend or so, maybe a Zipcar now and then to visit someone, or the odd roadtrip when you can just get a rental you can probably get by without a car).
michaelcampbell 3y ago
I'm sure not all, but I feel so many of these calculations do not include how much is your time worth, which unlike money you can't make more of. I'm in a sub-sub-urb of a big city in the US so a car is a necessity; I don't like it, but it's what it is. But even if I lived near a train station (and I have used them in the UK, New York, and Western Europe), not having a car is still a cost in time. How much I never put to paper, but it's not zero. (I'm also discounting the cost and hassle of having a car in a "big city" - when I lived in NY, no way I'd own a car there.)
- acdha 3y ago
  This is true but cuts both ways: car owners spend time dealing with maintenance and repairs, parking, etc. It very much depends on where you live but one thing I’ve noticed is that most drivers are chronically late because they’re thinking of the time spent driving on roads, not actual door-to-door travel time including things like the time they spent looking for a more subsidized parking spot or waiting for other drivers to leave. The other thing is quality of life. Walking, biking, and even using transit are better for your health – the first two can meet your exercise needs - and they all allow you to do something other than sit immobile looking at a tailpipe, so you have to make a fuzzy comparison in many cases. Where I live, driving can be as fast as riding a bike if you’re lucky on traffic but even if I take transit it’s only like 10 minutes slower so I’d have to weight 30 minutes of reading and 15 minutes of walking against 25 minutes of driving.

rsynnott 3y ago

I never got around to learning to drive (always worked in Dublin, and moved into the city centre after college), and was quite shocked to discover just _how_ much people were spending on it (for instance, apparently avg price of a new car here is 35k; I'd have guessed maybe 10-15 if you'd asked me)? Of course, there are tradeoffs there; my house cost a _lot_ more than a house in the middle of nowhere, certainly. But all in all I'm glad I avoided tethering myself to a car (I do plan to learn at some point, as it feels like the sort of thing I should be able to do before I'm 40, but I can't see myself actually buying one).

pmarreck 3y ago
To your point, the people who use/think they need cars probably have a lot of misconceptions about not having them. But at least they’ve both had and have not had cars. Not to your point, if you’ve never had a car or even experienced the joys of driving itself or simply being able to go far away on a moment’s notice, your “gladness” of its avoidance may ring as hollow as the blind individual who is “glad” they aren’t bound to the tyranny of visual entertainments. I mean, that’s a nice story you’re telling yourself, but do you really have to information to know? In particular, once you have children, a vehicle becomes a near-necessity anywhere outside a city.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  > simply being able to go far away on a moment’s notice Buy intercity bus ticket on internet, 15 minute bus journey to where the intercity buses congregate, get on bus. Or train, but Irish Rail likes to charge roughly 2x as much for same-day intercity tickets as next day. Now, if you want to go to the middle of nowhere, that's harder, I suppose, but towns and cities are easy enough (caveat: Ireland's transport system is rather poorly designed and ~everything radiates out of Dublin, so this probably only works well if you live _in_ Dublin). As I say, I do plan to get around to learning to drive at some point (my last attempt was foiled by covid; I got a provisional license in Feb 2020), but honestly it's hard to prioritise. Kids would be more of an issue, granted. I mostly walked or got the bus to school, but I do think that’s less common these days. As a late-30s gay man, not something I have to personally worry about too much, tho.

roenxi 3y ago

And that is only on the personal level. The hypothetical societal benefits from tightening up streets and houses (no need for a garage) are probably big too. Hard to realise once a city is built though. Just look at the amount of prime land locked up for traffic. It is pretty amazing to think about how much dead space there is in a typical city.

2-718-281-828 3y ago

this submission is not about individual cost of a car but overall societal cost of people using cars.

rsynnott 3y ago
Well, it touches on both; it’s claim is that the per capita common cost is more than the per capita user cost.

noogle 3y ago

I had the opposite experience: using taxis/Uber/Lyft was far more expensive than owning a car so after Uber stopped subsidizing rides I had to buy a vehicle. That was in a city with a metro system, living in one of its main boroughs. Even today, a cab to anywhere (even 3 miles) would cost me at least $10 each direction, and we have at least 5 such trips weekly. This easily surpasses the cost of the car, including depreciation and fuel.

thatfrenchguy 3y ago
$10 each way is $100 a week, a car’s going to cost you more than $400 a month?
- joshspankit 3y ago
  More than $400/mo wouldn’t be surprising if the true cost is calculated over a year. Insurance, parts, maintenance, gas, putting the winter tires on, etc, etc, etc.
- noogle 3y ago
  No. A car can cost much less than $400. Hence I own a car instead of taking taxis.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I own a car and I need one where I live. But I question that owning a car can cost much less than $4800 a year given insurance, maintenance, gas, fees, and other costs. As a purely financial decision, I'd trade for a driver if that were my real cost.

DrWeevilJammer 3y ago

Yes, Western Europe is definitely "streets ahead" of the US in public transportation. One thing to note though is that costs can be drastically lower if you a) buy used, and b) learn how to do most maintenance yourself. Most things that typically go wrong with a vehicle aren't that difficult to fix, and parts aren't that expensive, but a mechanic's hourly labor costs tend to add up very quickly.