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Question for those thinking car infrastructure costs too much etc: How many kids do you have? The way i see it all arguments for reducing reliance on cars com

by junaru 3y ago

Question for those thinking car infrastructure costs too much etc: How many kids do you have? The way i see it all arguments for reducing reliance on cars comes from people in metropolitan areas enjoying single life and not planning for a family. Giving the way my generation is with money the hostility most likely comes not from ideological reasons but simply because we are unable to afford them altogether thus it's being masked as some honorable cause instead of petty spite.

epistasis 3y ago
As the parent of two kids, I really don't understand this at all, much less the idea that it's some sort of trump card against lower car lifestyles. Have you actually considered what a car does to your life? Think how much better your life would be if you didn't have to worry about cars killing your children, as it's one of the biggest sources of child death. Imagine the freedom if your kids could go to sports practice, to school, to music lesson, without you driving them everywhere. People in he Us have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome with cars. Their are our captor but we seem to love them still.
- junaru 3y ago
  Number of kids and population count of your town please. Thank you.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    I grew up in a small rural town where people were not slaves to cars because you could get around with or without a car. Now I'm in a suburb, and the closest services are about a mile away, so everyone is dependent on a car. I can get most of my day done on bike, and the kids definitely prefer bikes to the car, but as they get older and have needs further out we will be car dependent again But it doesn't have to be that way. Transit can fill that gap when you want something bigger than a small rural town. However, cars have been baked into most of our suburban design in a way that transit can not grow to fill that gap. We have planned our entire suburban areas around the idea of being stuck in a car for all needs. My partner and I would honestly prefer a city, but cities have also been planned to keep as many people out as possible, so very few new apartments get built, and when they are built, it's usually almost entirely single and two bedroom apartments because there's such a huge backlog of demand to live in cities. There is a better life possible, but US law has made it illegal to build.
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  You're implying that everyone should live in a densely urban zone? I grew up in the alps, and spent a reasonable amount of my teens waiting for the bus (1 every 2h) to go in town. Cars are decentralized means of transportation that, in some cases, can be useful.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    I am advocating against car dependency, a particular style of development in the US that few Europeans understand until they live in it. I am not advocating for getting rid of all cars, or even saying that car-dependent areas should be banned! I'm advocating for allowing those who want to choose something other than a car to have that choice. However, the way that US law is constructed, and 99% of land use is planned, a car is needed to fetch a loaf of bread, get to daycare, visit friends, or to perform any of the basics of life. Imagine your house is an island, and every other destination is an island, and your car is the only way to get between them. That's the assumption of the entire US planning professions.
slyall 3y ago
In many places kids are able to walk, bike or take public transit themselves to get around. So parents don't have to spend all their time driving kids between activities.
- junaru 3y ago
  That's not true, how many kids take the bus to daycare? Also, number of kids and population count of your town please.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Imagine if there was daycare so close that you didn't have to drive. Imagine! Despite living in a suburb, this was actually the case for my kids' first daycare! That particular daycare didn't work out, but there was one about 1.5 miles away instead of 1 mile that we did instead. This is what is possible when neighborhoods are built with mixed uses, rather than being miles of only homes, like the typical poorly-thought-out subdivision. Also, this aggressive asking "oh yeah how many kids and where" to a second person after me is quite off-putting. I have no desire to share that info with somebody who is asking like that.
  - slyall 3y ago
    I have daycare places 60 metres, 280 metres, 750 metres and 1200m from me. Might be something others I've missed. City of 1.7 million. Probably what you'd call a single-story streetcar suburb with occasional multi-family building. Also even if parents need to manually transport under-5s everywhere, this should certainly not be the case with older children.
cduzz 3y ago
I certainly see families on subways / bikes. I'm certainly not one of those families; my kids are typically transported like little mafia bosses in the back as they plan their crimes. My older kid, though, started going to a new school, that's quite far away and he walks down to the train station, gets on the train, gets off at the end of the line and takes a light rail subway 2 stops to his school. It's terrifying, as a parent, to send him off like that, but it's been wonderful for him and he's grown tremendously. The most dangerous part of that commute, btw, is crossing the street to the train station -- it's 1/4th of a mile from my house, but that specific crossing kills a person every 18 months, almost to the day, and has for the past 15 years I've lived in this neighborhood. Any talk about fixing the problem, especially if the fix may inconvenience drivers, will provoke such rage as you wouldn't believe from otherwise seemingly sane people.
- junaru 3y ago
  > I certainly see families on subways / bikes. So metropolitan area. Do you think its by choice or necessity? The way i see it no one would take their sick kid to the doctors by subway/bike if they had a access to a car. > will provoke such rage as you wouldn't believe from otherwise seemingly sane people. That's human, we all participate in recreational outrage when it suits us be it drivers or those who oppose them. Sorry to hear about that crossing and hope your kids will be fine.
  - cduzz 3y ago
    I know plenty of people in pretty affluent (well, relative to the earth, absurdly affluent) areas who have kids, a car, and still schlep their kids around by bike / train / (rarely) bus. When I lived there I had an old honda scooter I'd use to get around. Where I live now there are enough myopic elderly people driving champagne toyota camrys playing bumper cars that I don't feel safe operating a 2 wheeled vehicle. This is the "boston / oakland / summerville / cambridge" hipster zone. Some stick it out and some move to Marin or Andover. [edit] I should say -- I feel far safer putting my kid on a train than I would letting him carpool to school with other kids his age. Even with the very lethal street crossing. Kids are terrible drivers, especially if you put more than one of them in the car at the same time.
dr_dshiv 3y ago
Had 4 kids in Amsterdam NL specifically because there is good public transit and biking infrastructure. Admittedly, we finally got a car for baby #4, but our other kids walk/bike to school or get taken by bike. I personally found it untenable to have so many kids in USA cities. Car culture makes it hard — you have to take your kids everywhere!!
- skeeter2020 3y ago
  This video is in Vancouver, BC, Canada and explores why kids don't walk to school: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqvQ-5784po https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqvQ-5784po Goes into depth on some of the complexity, with one conclusion that car culture in general is reinforcing for many reasons, including more cars making it more dangerous making cars more attractive.
- junaru 3y ago
  Congrats on big family! How do you manage home improvement without car? I always run out of some small stuff during the weekends so its either 30minute turnaround by car or an hour and thirty by public transport and that's usually near the closing hours so its either car, or no one has running water for the day because some kitchen appliance has no valve and the connector hose is leaking.
  - alamortsubite 3y ago
    Congrats on your enthusiasm for DIY appliance repair! I must say, however, some of these scenarios rationalizing car dependency are so highly-contrived as to seem desperate. Are you suggesting they're a reasonable justification for a $14K annual public subsidy per household (TFA)?
    - junaru 3y ago
      How is it highly contrived? Its generic household chores, who does them for you? > Are you suggesting they're a reasonable justification for a $14K annual public subsidy per household (TFA)? Yes, i would take those numbers with a grain of salt but yes. If you remove roads and cars neither the goods nor people you hire will get to you. At that point you are left with just leaving for somewhere else and starting the whole 'defund public infrastructure we rely on' campaign all over again - it's shortsighted at best and borderline malicious.
skeeter2020 3y ago
My theory: there is an entire generation approaching the age when their parents "purchased" a home that has lived with near-zero interest rates for most of their lives. This enabled people to finance lifestyles well beyond their ability to outright purchase them, shaping expectations. Not anymore, especially combined with the increases in prices.
throw0101a 3y ago
> How many kids do you have? Jason Slaughter of Not Just Bikes has two: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA See also: > Heather Moore-Farley was pregnant with her third child when the family’s car died on route home from vacation. Her husband’s office was walkable from home, as was a Zipcar share. So to help save both money and the environment, the family decided to see how long they could go without a car. Two days before they welcomed their youngest child, “we ordered a cargo bike and just kept going,” said Moore-Farley, who lives in Oakland. That was 10 years ago. They still haven’t replaced the family car. * https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a40299756/families-giving-up-cars/ https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a40299756/fa... > Traipsing 3 kids around to school, daycare, and extracurricular activities wouldn’t be easy. How would they grocery shop to fill all those mouths? What about family vacations, weekend trips away, or heading out to the movies – could they survive? * https://www.ratehub.ca/blog/the-family-of-5-that-went-car-free/ https://www.ratehub.ca/blog/the-family-of-5-that-went-car-fr... > Biking with kids is all the rage in Portland these days, but biking with six kids between the ages of 2 and 11? That’s something I never would have thought possible before I met southeast Portland resident Emily Finch. * https://bikeportland.org/2012/06/28/with-six-kids-and-no-car-this-mom-does-it-all-by-bike-73731 https://bikeportland.org/2012/06/28/with-six-kids-and-no-car...

by junaru 3y ago

epistasis 3y ago

As the parent of two kids, I really don't understand this at all, much less the idea that it's some sort of trump card against lower car lifestyles. Have you actually considered what a car does to your life? Think how much better your life would be if you didn't have to worry about cars killing your children, as it's one of the biggest sources of child death. Imagine the freedom if your kids could go to sports practice, to school, to music lesson, without you driving them everywhere. People in he Us have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome with cars. Their are our captor but we seem to love them still.

junaru 3y ago
Number of kids and population count of your town please. Thank you.
- epistasis 3y ago
  I grew up in a small rural town where people were not slaves to cars because you could get around with or without a car. Now I'm in a suburb, and the closest services are about a mile away, so everyone is dependent on a car. I can get most of my day done on bike, and the kids definitely prefer bikes to the car, but as they get older and have needs further out we will be car dependent again But it doesn't have to be that way. Transit can fill that gap when you want something bigger than a small rural town. However, cars have been baked into most of our suburban design in a way that transit can not grow to fill that gap. We have planned our entire suburban areas around the idea of being stuck in a car for all needs. My partner and I would honestly prefer a city, but cities have also been planned to keep as many people out as possible, so very few new apartments get built, and when they are built, it's usually almost entirely single and two bedroom apartments because there's such a huge backlog of demand to live in cities. There is a better life possible, but US law has made it illegal to build.
Kretinsky 3y ago
You're implying that everyone should live in a densely urban zone? I grew up in the alps, and spent a reasonable amount of my teens waiting for the bus (1 every 2h) to go in town. Cars are decentralized means of transportation that, in some cases, can be useful.
- epistasis 3y ago
  I am advocating against car dependency, a particular style of development in the US that few Europeans understand until they live in it. I am not advocating for getting rid of all cars, or even saying that car-dependent areas should be banned! I'm advocating for allowing those who want to choose something other than a car to have that choice. However, the way that US law is constructed, and 99% of land use is planned, a car is needed to fetch a loaf of bread, get to daycare, visit friends, or to perform any of the basics of life. Imagine your house is an island, and every other destination is an island, and your car is the only way to get between them. That's the assumption of the entire US planning professions.

slyall 3y ago

In many places kids are able to walk, bike or take public transit themselves to get around. So parents don't have to spend all their time driving kids between activities.

junaru 3y ago
That's not true, how many kids take the bus to daycare? Also, number of kids and population count of your town please.
- epistasis 3y ago
  Imagine if there was daycare so close that you didn't have to drive. Imagine! Despite living in a suburb, this was actually the case for my kids' first daycare! That particular daycare didn't work out, but there was one about 1.5 miles away instead of 1 mile that we did instead. This is what is possible when neighborhoods are built with mixed uses, rather than being miles of only homes, like the typical poorly-thought-out subdivision. Also, this aggressive asking "oh yeah how many kids and where" to a second person after me is quite off-putting. I have no desire to share that info with somebody who is asking like that.
- slyall 3y ago
  I have daycare places 60 metres, 280 metres, 750 metres and 1200m from me. Might be something others I've missed. City of 1.7 million. Probably what you'd call a single-story streetcar suburb with occasional multi-family building. Also even if parents need to manually transport under-5s everywhere, this should certainly not be the case with older children.

cduzz 3y ago

I certainly see families on subways / bikes. I'm certainly not one of those families; my kids are typically transported like little mafia bosses in the back as they plan their crimes. My older kid, though, started going to a new school, that's quite far away and he walks down to the train station, gets on the train, gets off at the end of the line and takes a light rail subway 2 stops to his school. It's terrifying, as a parent, to send him off like that, but it's been wonderful for him and he's grown tremendously. The most dangerous part of that commute, btw, is crossing the street to the train station -- it's 1/4th of a mile from my house, but that specific crossing kills a person every 18 months, almost to the day, and has for the past 15 years I've lived in this neighborhood. Any talk about fixing the problem, especially if the fix may inconvenience drivers, will provoke such rage as you wouldn't believe from otherwise seemingly sane people.

junaru 3y ago
> I certainly see families on subways / bikes. So metropolitan area. Do you think its by choice or necessity? The way i see it no one would take their sick kid to the doctors by subway/bike if they had a access to a car. > will provoke such rage as you wouldn't believe from otherwise seemingly sane people. That's human, we all participate in recreational outrage when it suits us be it drivers or those who oppose them. Sorry to hear about that crossing and hope your kids will be fine.
- cduzz 3y ago
  I know plenty of people in pretty affluent (well, relative to the earth, absurdly affluent) areas who have kids, a car, and still schlep their kids around by bike / train / (rarely) bus. When I lived there I had an old honda scooter I'd use to get around. Where I live now there are enough myopic elderly people driving champagne toyota camrys playing bumper cars that I don't feel safe operating a 2 wheeled vehicle. This is the "boston / oakland / summerville / cambridge" hipster zone. Some stick it out and some move to Marin or Andover. [edit] I should say -- I feel far safer putting my kid on a train than I would letting him carpool to school with other kids his age. Even with the very lethal street crossing. Kids are terrible drivers, especially if you put more than one of them in the car at the same time.

dr_dshiv 3y ago

Had 4 kids in Amsterdam NL specifically because there is good public transit and biking infrastructure. Admittedly, we finally got a car for baby #4, but our other kids walk/bike to school or get taken by bike. I personally found it untenable to have so many kids in USA cities. Car culture makes it hard — you have to take your kids everywhere!!

skeeter2020 3y ago
This video is in Vancouver, BC, Canada and explores why kids don't walk to school: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqvQ-5784po https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqvQ-5784po Goes into depth on some of the complexity, with one conclusion that car culture in general is reinforcing for many reasons, including more cars making it more dangerous making cars more attractive.
junaru 3y ago
Congrats on big family! How do you manage home improvement without car? I always run out of some small stuff during the weekends so its either 30minute turnaround by car or an hour and thirty by public transport and that's usually near the closing hours so its either car, or no one has running water for the day because some kitchen appliance has no valve and the connector hose is leaking.
- alamortsubite 3y ago
  Congrats on your enthusiasm for DIY appliance repair! I must say, however, some of these scenarios rationalizing car dependency are so highly-contrived as to seem desperate. Are you suggesting they're a reasonable justification for a $14K annual public subsidy per household (TFA)?
  - junaru 3y ago
    How is it highly contrived? Its generic household chores, who does them for you? > Are you suggesting they're a reasonable justification for a $14K annual public subsidy per household (TFA)? Yes, i would take those numbers with a grain of salt but yes. If you remove roads and cars neither the goods nor people you hire will get to you. At that point you are left with just leaving for somewhere else and starting the whole 'defund public infrastructure we rely on' campaign all over again - it's shortsighted at best and borderline malicious.

skeeter2020 3y ago

My theory: there is an entire generation approaching the age when their parents "purchased" a home that has lived with near-zero interest rates for most of their lives. This enabled people to finance lifestyles well beyond their ability to outright purchase them, shaping expectations. Not anymore, especially combined with the increases in prices.

throw0101a 3y ago

> How many kids do you have? Jason Slaughter of Not Just Bikes has two: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA See also: > Heather Moore-Farley was pregnant with her third child when the family’s car died on route home from vacation. Her husband’s office was walkable from home, as was a Zipcar share. So to help save both money and the environment, the family decided to see how long they could go without a car. Two days before they welcomed their youngest child, “we ordered a cargo bike and just kept going,” said Moore-Farley, who lives in Oakland. That was 10 years ago. They still haven’t replaced the family car. * https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a40299756/families-giving-up-cars/ https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a40299756/fa... > Traipsing 3 kids around to school, daycare, and extracurricular activities wouldn’t be easy. How would they grocery shop to fill all those mouths? What about family vacations, weekend trips away, or heading out to the movies – could they survive? * https://www.ratehub.ca/blog/the-family-of-5-that-went-car-free/ https://www.ratehub.ca/blog/the-family-of-5-that-went-car-fr... > Biking with kids is all the rage in Portland these days, but biking with six kids between the ages of 2 and 11? That’s something I never would have thought possible before I met southeast Portland resident Emily Finch. * https://bikeportland.org/2012/06/28/with-six-kids-and-no-car-this-mom-does-it-all-by-bike-73731 https://bikeportland.org/2012/06/28/with-six-kids-and-no-car...