6 ms·

Ask HN: Emigrating and going back to Engineering from engineering Management

5 points by godi_media 3y ago

I am an early 30s M in a third world country who got recently diagnosed with ADHD. I have graduated in CS from a not so great university and worked my way up to a Engineering Manager position over 10 years. I am also a liberal at heart and the current political scenario is very conservative and non scientific in its approach causing daily struggles for me in the direction my surroundings are taking, riots and communal dis-harmony is abundant. Right now the pay is great at around 100K USD in a country with median income of 3k USD. However with the pay comes the need to manage more and more people and manage more and more charters to keep growing. This conflicts with my core value of learning in depth about technical disciplines and delivering value in medium to high complexity projects rather than delivering low value in a high number of projects. Since I was suffering with depression(ADHD) and alcoholism for the past 10 years, the suppression of my core values in return for the great pay and benefits was worth it to me and I kept moving in the direction prescribed by the organizations I worked for. However with my ADHD now under treatment and alcoholism now gone(6 months :) ), I have renewed energy and focus to circle back to my core passion and excel in engineering rather than delivery management. So I need suggestion on the below two issues and would also be open if someone can DM if they have had a similar story 1. There are other cities in my country which are better in terms of pay and work quality, however the language barrier there vs europe would be similar and the political scenario would be same. So I am looking at emigrating to europe. US is a no go for me right now due to lack of healthcare an polarization of masses. 2. Will it be easy to convince potential employers on the change from Management to engineering oriented roles, or would I first need to take up a role in management and then switch to Engineering role. 3. I work with a fortune 500 sized company and handle a complex high throughput engineering portfolio, most of which I myself have coded first hand or reviewed as a lead. Will this be sufficient to suppress the lack of a decent college on my Resume and get 200K-250K USD opportunity. I am looking at Amsterdam, Ireland and UK as potential destinations as the language barrier there will be small.

earthnail 3y ago
Can't comment on 1) as it's not really a question, but: 2) Yes, it will be relatively easy, but I suggest doing a bit of soul searching to figure out if it's really the role or rather the environment. I wouldn't pin it on ADHD, lots of people have it (and it's a spectrum not a yes/no thing anyway), but rather on: do you prefer working with people or with code? Working with people means nerding out on organization structures and people management, which is different from mentoring. 3.) In Europe, 200-250k USD is hard to come by, and almost impossible for engineering roles. Exceptions apply, of course, but normal engineering roles at medium and large companies are still <€100k. Salary structures are very different here as social security in most countries is stronger. > This conflicts with my core value of learning in depth about technical disciplines and delivering value in medium to high complexity projects rather than delivering low value in a high number of projects. To be happy in engineering management, you need to look at managing a high number of projects as a technical discipline. This IS your discipline. You're doing chaos management. It's a bit like a big data approach for people. You just need to understand that your engineers are not your peers. There is much to learn in building organisations, and you can nerd out BIG TIME with it. For reference: was a startup CTO of a tiny team, got acquired by a big corp, became engineering manager, grew the team to several teams across continents, switched back to engineer as I got frustrated with my work, became less frustrated but also bored and then founded a new startup as CEO (i.e., in your world, switched to product role). So I've done a few of those things, although not from a third world country but rather a privileged first world country position. Still, few people in my journey were able to help me understand the engineering manager position, and our org also wasn't designed to really help me execute it as too many decisions were based in the product org. So I hope my advice helps you a bit. The key to being a happy engineering manager is to understand that you're not doing a bit of this and that, but that you're nerding out BIG TIME in this rabbit hole of building organisations that can house many, many people and make them work together.
- godi_media 3y ago
  This helps a ton. I think I need to decouple the Engineering manager to Engineering shift and the cultural and political challenges that I seek to solve. Thanks for clarifying on the salary part, I think I will be on the lookout for both type of position and maximize the offer I can get. Also, my wife is currently a FAANG employee and keen to keep working going forward, we should be good on the compensation front.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    As a FAANG employee, maybe she can seek a transfer to a more desirable country and you follow?
adastra22 3y ago
Curious what country you are in, given you see a larger language barrier in your own country vs. Europe. You are very highly compensated even by European standards. Are you certain you can find an engineering position outside the US that pays as well, especially after considering higher costs of living? Emigration won’t solve any personal problems. I would do it if the opportunity presents itself (well paid job) or if it’s something you want to do anyway for other reasons. But don’t jump ship just because the grass seems greener on the other side.
- godi_media 3y ago
  You can take a wild guess at the country, most likely you will be right. I am not looking to solve any personal problems, the problems are more related to the conservative and non scientific politics. I get regularly abused and bullied for my non religious and scientific views. This has a knock on effect on my wife not able to realize her potential(MBA TPM in FAANG) as generally the leadership in corporates is a sausage fest with ratios as bad as 20-30:1 in non engineering and 50:1 in engineering leadership roles. The cities are unsafe at best for women and children and this renders me Antinatalist here. I don't have a wide social circle here as well with me being a nerd since childhood, F1 vs the local sport and tech gaming instead of socializing.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    India? Sorry to push the issue but this is an interesting data point. I see a strong move towards non-scientific, religious conservatism in my country as well.
    - godi_media 3y ago
      Yes. We are increasingly moving towards an anti-science and anti-technocrat based regime. There are signs of fascism with the media control,my username is that reference. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godi_media https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godi_media)
      - 3y ago
tkiolp4 3y ago
Sounds realistic to me, except the expected salary range. 200K-250K USD in Europe as simple individual contributor is extremely unlikely. If we are talking about a very senior engineer (more than 15 years of software engineering is experience) then we are talking more about a position like Principal Engineer or so. Not all tech companies in Europe have even such positions. I would say a more realistic salary range for a staff engineer (which is a more popular role in many companies for engineers who are very senior) is probably ~120K. And getting this kind of salary at these kind of companies is not easy. Now, of course there are perhaps 10 or so companies in Europe who can pay ~180K for a Staff position. But that’s like winning the lottery.
- adastra22 3y ago
  And let’s be brutally honest: it’s harder to get these sorts of salaries when your passport is from certain countries and your work visa is job dependent.
Aperocky 3y ago
It's a tough job market out there. If you're looking for a material increase for life, it's highly unlikely - even if your pay are bumped slightly. But if you're looking for a change of direction, like not managing people or greener pastures and surrounding, then maybe go for it. But from your description that doesn't seem to be your first priority. Grass isn't always greener, being at home has its own perks.
badpun 3y ago
There are hardly any $200k-$250k coder jobs in Europe (most coders make less than you're making now). I'd say maybe ultraspecialized people in things like HFT make that much, or perhaps to people at a FAANG in Switzerland. Other than that, I can't think of a place that would pay so much. Also, as you'd be coming down with a visa, which is inconvenient for the company, a chance of negotating such salary is probably around zero, unless one of the FAANGs in Switzerland loves you (they probably don't care about the visa hassles) - but hiring in FAANGs have been lackluster recently. Also, bear in mind that most of the Western Europe countries have extortionate income taxes, you'd be lucky to keep half of that $200-$250k in some of the places.
adastra22 3y ago
Honestly I think you really need to check out of the news cycle, find a hobby or something to do with your wife, and not worry so much. Outside of a few unique historical time periods, the ruling party in a democracy and the zeitgeist of an era does not really impact the day to day life of upper middle class people like yourself. You are making an ungodly amount of money in your home country, where taxes and living expenses are low and there is a lot of growth prospects. You could make more money even while switching to engineering if you were to relocate to Silicon Valley. That's pretty much the only option though--you are not going to make more after tax, take-home pay in Europe or Canada.
- godi_media 3y ago
  I agree that my life doesnt get as affected due to the current privilege I hold, I had riots happening 500 yards away from my house and got spooked. I think FAANG/FAANG like in europe or liberal US states remain the only options. Will be looking to up my skills according to this.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    I grew up in the SF Bay Area. We have a number of problems, including increasing crime and unsafe school environments. But what you see in the news about ultranationalist, hyperconservative religion-driven political nonsense in the US media coverage largely doesn’t happen here. You’re safe as long as you avoid certain areas (Oakland, downtown SF, East San Jose, etc.)

5 points by godi_media 3y ago

earthnail 3y ago

Can't comment on 1) as it's not really a question, but: 2) Yes, it will be relatively easy, but I suggest doing a bit of soul searching to figure out if it's really the role or rather the environment. I wouldn't pin it on ADHD, lots of people have it (and it's a spectrum not a yes/no thing anyway), but rather on: do you prefer working with people or with code? Working with people means nerding out on organization structures and people management, which is different from mentoring. 3.) In Europe, 200-250k USD is hard to come by, and almost impossible for engineering roles. Exceptions apply, of course, but normal engineering roles at medium and large companies are still <€100k. Salary structures are very different here as social security in most countries is stronger. > This conflicts with my core value of learning in depth about technical disciplines and delivering value in medium to high complexity projects rather than delivering low value in a high number of projects. To be happy in engineering management, you need to look at managing a high number of projects as a technical discipline. This IS your discipline. You're doing chaos management. It's a bit like a big data approach for people. You just need to understand that your engineers are not your peers. There is much to learn in building organisations, and you can nerd out BIG TIME with it. For reference: was a startup CTO of a tiny team, got acquired by a big corp, became engineering manager, grew the team to several teams across continents, switched back to engineer as I got frustrated with my work, became less frustrated but also bored and then founded a new startup as CEO (i.e., in your world, switched to product role). So I've done a few of those things, although not from a third world country but rather a privileged first world country position. Still, few people in my journey were able to help me understand the engineering manager position, and our org also wasn't designed to really help me execute it as too many decisions were based in the product org. So I hope my advice helps you a bit. The key to being a happy engineering manager is to understand that you're not doing a bit of this and that, but that you're nerding out BIG TIME in this rabbit hole of building organisations that can house many, many people and make them work together.

godi_media 3y ago
This helps a ton. I think I need to decouple the Engineering manager to Engineering shift and the cultural and political challenges that I seek to solve. Thanks for clarifying on the salary part, I think I will be on the lookout for both type of position and maximize the offer I can get. Also, my wife is currently a FAANG employee and keen to keep working going forward, we should be good on the compensation front.
- adastra22 3y ago
  As a FAANG employee, maybe she can seek a transfer to a more desirable country and you follow?

adastra22 3y ago

Curious what country you are in, given you see a larger language barrier in your own country vs. Europe. You are very highly compensated even by European standards. Are you certain you can find an engineering position outside the US that pays as well, especially after considering higher costs of living? Emigration won’t solve any personal problems. I would do it if the opportunity presents itself (well paid job) or if it’s something you want to do anyway for other reasons. But don’t jump ship just because the grass seems greener on the other side.

godi_media 3y ago
You can take a wild guess at the country, most likely you will be right. I am not looking to solve any personal problems, the problems are more related to the conservative and non scientific politics. I get regularly abused and bullied for my non religious and scientific views. This has a knock on effect on my wife not able to realize her potential(MBA TPM in FAANG) as generally the leadership in corporates is a sausage fest with ratios as bad as 20-30:1 in non engineering and 50:1 in engineering leadership roles. The cities are unsafe at best for women and children and this renders me Antinatalist here. I don't have a wide social circle here as well with me being a nerd since childhood, F1 vs the local sport and tech gaming instead of socializing.
- adastra22 3y ago
  India? Sorry to push the issue but this is an interesting data point. I see a strong move towards non-scientific, religious conservatism in my country as well.
  - godi_media 3y ago
    Yes. We are increasingly moving towards an anti-science and anti-technocrat based regime. There are signs of fascism with the media control,my username is that reference. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godi_media https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godi_media)
    - 3y ago

tkiolp4 3y ago

Sounds realistic to me, except the expected salary range. 200K-250K USD in Europe as simple individual contributor is extremely unlikely. If we are talking about a very senior engineer (more than 15 years of software engineering is experience) then we are talking more about a position like Principal Engineer or so. Not all tech companies in Europe have even such positions. I would say a more realistic salary range for a staff engineer (which is a more popular role in many companies for engineers who are very senior) is probably ~120K. And getting this kind of salary at these kind of companies is not easy. Now, of course there are perhaps 10 or so companies in Europe who can pay ~180K for a Staff position. But that’s like winning the lottery.

adastra22 3y ago
And let’s be brutally honest: it’s harder to get these sorts of salaries when your passport is from certain countries and your work visa is job dependent.

Aperocky 3y ago

It's a tough job market out there. If you're looking for a material increase for life, it's highly unlikely - even if your pay are bumped slightly. But if you're looking for a change of direction, like not managing people or greener pastures and surrounding, then maybe go for it. But from your description that doesn't seem to be your first priority. Grass isn't always greener, being at home has its own perks.

badpun 3y ago

There are hardly any $200k-$250k coder jobs in Europe (most coders make less than you're making now). I'd say maybe ultraspecialized people in things like HFT make that much, or perhaps to people at a FAANG in Switzerland. Other than that, I can't think of a place that would pay so much. Also, as you'd be coming down with a visa, which is inconvenient for the company, a chance of negotating such salary is probably around zero, unless one of the FAANGs in Switzerland loves you (they probably don't care about the visa hassles) - but hiring in FAANGs have been lackluster recently. Also, bear in mind that most of the Western Europe countries have extortionate income taxes, you'd be lucky to keep half of that $200-$250k in some of the places.

adastra22 3y ago

Honestly I think you really need to check out of the news cycle, find a hobby or something to do with your wife, and not worry so much. Outside of a few unique historical time periods, the ruling party in a democracy and the zeitgeist of an era does not really impact the day to day life of upper middle class people like yourself. You are making an ungodly amount of money in your home country, where taxes and living expenses are low and there is a lot of growth prospects. You could make more money even while switching to engineering if you were to relocate to Silicon Valley. That's pretty much the only option though--you are not going to make more after tax, take-home pay in Europe or Canada.

godi_media 3y ago
I agree that my life doesnt get as affected due to the current privilege I hold, I had riots happening 500 yards away from my house and got spooked. I think FAANG/FAANG like in europe or liberal US states remain the only options. Will be looking to up my skills according to this.
- adastra22 3y ago
  I grew up in the SF Bay Area. We have a number of problems, including increasing crime and unsafe school environments. But what you see in the news about ultranationalist, hyperconservative religion-driven political nonsense in the US media coverage largely doesn’t happen here. You’re safe as long as you avoid certain areas (Oakland, downtown SF, East San Jose, etc.)