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> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”. The best thing about these burnout discussions is that everyone just makes up their

> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”. The best thing about these burnout discussions is that everyone just makes up their own definition to fit whatever symptoms they want to talk about. The WHO has a pretty clear definition that I find a lot more useful. https://www.who.int/news/item/28-05-2019-burn-out-an-occupational-phenomenon-international-classification-of-diseases https://www.who.int/news/item/28-05-2019-burn-out-an-occupat...

jqcoffey 3y ago
And here I thought burn out was the inability to do something. Learn something new every day!
ravenstine 3y ago
Reminds me of how antisocial behavior today is referred to as "narcissism". Like that, anything dysphoric about work life must be burnout.
- unsubstantiated 3y ago
  The word "narcissism" has been weaponized as a form of slandering whoever you're after. It's closer to a new variant of "creepy," but now with 200% more Science™ behind it. The word "burnout," hasn't suffered the same unfortunate fate, although there are those of us who are waiting for competition to declare that they have burned out so we can take their share of the profits etc. It's more of a self-inflicted wound.
- maxlamb 3y ago
  Maybe they were referring to antisocial personality disorder, which is very different from anti-social behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorde... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour
darkclouds 3y ago
" as an occupational phenomenon" "feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; increased mental distance from one’s job, or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job; and reduced professional efficacy" Yes it can be occupational, but it can also be applied to home, location, country or life. When thinking about being burnt out by life, its more commonly known as suicide but not the only reason for suicide. When thinking about being burnt out by a country, its seen in a variety of ways, like not voting for brexit if you are british and relying on the EU to draw up the legislation, which may or may not be enacted in full. It can be the culture of the country, the way people did/do things because its always been done that way. When thinking about being burnt out by home life, I think most parents can relate to that, but social conformity means they must maintain a stiff upper lip! Either way, I take everything people in authority or expertise or both say with a massive pinch of salt. I've seen so much hypocrisy its laughable. On the point of inability to relax, calcium has a massive stimulatory effect[1]. Sodium (too little or too much) also causes a rise in osteoclasts which release calcium from the bones.[2,3] And there is so much salt in the processed food today (dont think I need to provide links for that), and water hardness is a contributory factor (dont think I need to provide links for that), beit soaking in the bath, having long showers[4], or drinking lots of hot beverages, is it any wonder people cant relax? If you get banged up in a mental health hospital, you wont be eating processed food, so your sodium intake will likely fall, and they probably filter their water so its soft water, to reduce estate maintenance costs. So yes the WHO has a very narrow definition of burn out, but in the absence of any other definition for the above possible factors, I think the populace apply their own definitions and interpretation of burn out, although needing a holiday could be applied to country/location/home burn out whilst not being recognised as burnt out, like I've described above, mainly because to quote Monty Python "Always look on the bright side of life..." Also, considering the all encompassing nature of the DSM, I'd have thought they would have had some input on burnout, but it looks like they are still contemplating it as a mental disorder.[5] "Stemming from a lack of conceptual clarity, the current state of burnout research remains, unfortunately, largely circular and riddled with measurement issues."[5] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/ [4] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/ [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/
fnordpiglet 3y ago
I think anyone who has experienced burnout of any severity sees the WHO definition as scoped from the employers point of view only and as a productivity issue. As a human though it extends to all aspects of life. I disagree with the assessment of the article too. I’ve gone through burnout and mentored a few dozen people going through it. It’s nothing to do with relaxing, or is confined to work. It’s all encompassing, has strong parallels and likely includes depression and an anxiety disorder. It has more of a sense of the inability to initiate anything rather than the inability to do nothing. Everything feels too hard, you feel too old, you see no prosperous future, and you yearn to end everything - not suicide, but to quit work, quit life, and disappear. These sounds like the appropriate mental response to unrelenting and uneasing stress to which you see no way out of. Most people suffering burn out spend an awful lot of time simply doing nothing. However myself and the folks I’ve worked with as a mentor at work on burnout share the trait we lose the ability to identify things we enjoy - video games, music, travel, etc, lose their redeeming value and they can’t identify what music they like any more or a game they want to play. When they relax, it’s spent ruminating. To that extent maybe the articles point is true. For me the way out was vipassana meditation and Buddhism. It taught me to master my rumination, detach myself from the stress, and discover the value of simply being rather than being someone or something. I recommend it to most people but only one or two have actually tried it.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  How do you differentiate between burnout and depression? What you are describing sounds a lot what I thought of as depression.
- irencha 3y ago
  Your description of burnout is very relatable to my life right now. Thanks. Do the people you mentor also do Buddhism and meditation? What did they do that helped (or did they just never recover)?
  - GoToRO 3y ago
    My view is that if you overwork then your body resources are depleted. One way to recover is to just do nothing. The resources will start to accumulate back but it'very slow. One thing that worked for me was multivitamins. I could see a change in a week. Not sure if it was proper burnout or something else (bad diet) though. The simptoms look the same.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
>> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”. What I find funny about this is that it would imply I've been burned out since I was 10 or 12 years old. "Just do nothing" was something I never considered possible for me, or desirable in general. For me the struggle was, and is, always about autonomy - being able to do what I want, instead of chores, homework, demands of parents, $dayjob, errands, demands of partner, etc.
- xyzzy123 3y ago
  There are days when I feel like a robot - I have almost no agency from morning until night. It really drags me down when it goes on for more than a few days consecutively. It's weird because my job is OK and I love my kids, and it's not that bad - I just feel like an NPC doing this day after day and want to "jump off the rails". Sometimes the only thing I can fall back on is that even if I can't choose what I'm doing I get to choose how I'm doing it.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    I was in this state for the first few months after my child was born. I remember one internal dialogue from that time: -She woke up already. I barely had half an hour today to do something else than cleaning and that's only because I skipped some tasks. Where's my time off? -What do you mean where's your time off? This was your time off. It got better when I let go of my mid 30s childless person presumption of having time after work. Also it got better because my daughter is now two and a half and can focus on an activity for the 114 seconds at worst it takes me to use the toilet.
  - pmoriarty 3y ago
    The vast majority of employees get paid to do something they would rather not do, had they a choice. They would rather be entertaining themselves, being with their families, relaxing, etc. Yet they have to work, and do things they don't want to do day after day, month after month, and year after year. On top of that they often have to pretend to like it, and to spend time with people they don't want to be with. It's even worse if they have to commute or not get enough sleep, or if they're not valued at work or don't feel they can make a difference. After a while, that takes its toll. Some can handle it, but some can't.

jqcoffey 3y ago

And here I thought burn out was the inability to do something. Learn something new every day!

ravenstine 3y ago

Reminds me of how antisocial behavior today is referred to as "narcissism". Like that, anything dysphoric about work life must be burnout.

unsubstantiated 3y ago
The word "narcissism" has been weaponized as a form of slandering whoever you're after. It's closer to a new variant of "creepy," but now with 200% more Science™ behind it. The word "burnout," hasn't suffered the same unfortunate fate, although there are those of us who are waiting for competition to declare that they have burned out so we can take their share of the profits etc. It's more of a self-inflicted wound.
maxlamb 3y ago
Maybe they were referring to antisocial personality disorder, which is very different from anti-social behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorde... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour

darkclouds 3y ago

" as an occupational phenomenon" "feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; increased mental distance from one’s job, or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job; and reduced professional efficacy" Yes it can be occupational, but it can also be applied to home, location, country or life. When thinking about being burnt out by life, its more commonly known as suicide but not the only reason for suicide. When thinking about being burnt out by a country, its seen in a variety of ways, like not voting for brexit if you are british and relying on the EU to draw up the legislation, which may or may not be enacted in full. It can be the culture of the country, the way people did/do things because its always been done that way. When thinking about being burnt out by home life, I think most parents can relate to that, but social conformity means they must maintain a stiff upper lip! Either way, I take everything people in authority or expertise or both say with a massive pinch of salt. I've seen so much hypocrisy its laughable. On the point of inability to relax, calcium has a massive stimulatory effect[1]. Sodium (too little or too much) also causes a rise in osteoclasts which release calcium from the bones.[2,3] And there is so much salt in the processed food today (dont think I need to provide links for that), and water hardness is a contributory factor (dont think I need to provide links for that), beit soaking in the bath, having long showers[4], or drinking lots of hot beverages, is it any wonder people cant relax? If you get banged up in a mental health hospital, you wont be eating processed food, so your sodium intake will likely fall, and they probably filter their water so its soft water, to reduce estate maintenance costs. So yes the WHO has a very narrow definition of burn out, but in the absence of any other definition for the above possible factors, I think the populace apply their own definitions and interpretation of burn out, although needing a holiday could be applied to country/location/home burn out whilst not being recognised as burnt out, like I've described above, mainly because to quote Monty Python "Always look on the bright side of life..." Also, considering the all encompassing nature of the DSM, I'd have thought they would have had some input on burnout, but it looks like they are still contemplating it as a mental disorder.[5] "Stemming from a lack of conceptual clarity, the current state of burnout research remains, unfortunately, largely circular and riddled with measurement issues."[5] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269601/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060537/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5635092/ [4] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15080493/ [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8945132/

fnordpiglet 3y ago

I think anyone who has experienced burnout of any severity sees the WHO definition as scoped from the employers point of view only and as a productivity issue. As a human though it extends to all aspects of life. I disagree with the assessment of the article too. I’ve gone through burnout and mentored a few dozen people going through it. It’s nothing to do with relaxing, or is confined to work. It’s all encompassing, has strong parallels and likely includes depression and an anxiety disorder. It has more of a sense of the inability to initiate anything rather than the inability to do nothing. Everything feels too hard, you feel too old, you see no prosperous future, and you yearn to end everything - not suicide, but to quit work, quit life, and disappear. These sounds like the appropriate mental response to unrelenting and uneasing stress to which you see no way out of. Most people suffering burn out spend an awful lot of time simply doing nothing. However myself and the folks I’ve worked with as a mentor at work on burnout share the trait we lose the ability to identify things we enjoy - video games, music, travel, etc, lose their redeeming value and they can’t identify what music they like any more or a game they want to play. When they relax, it’s spent ruminating. To that extent maybe the articles point is true. For me the way out was vipassana meditation and Buddhism. It taught me to master my rumination, detach myself from the stress, and discover the value of simply being rather than being someone or something. I recommend it to most people but only one or two have actually tried it.

ajmurmann 3y ago
How do you differentiate between burnout and depression? What you are describing sounds a lot what I thought of as depression.
irencha 3y ago
Your description of burnout is very relatable to my life right now. Thanks. Do the people you mentor also do Buddhism and meditation? What did they do that helped (or did they just never recover)?
- GoToRO 3y ago
  My view is that if you overwork then your body resources are depleted. One way to recover is to just do nothing. The resources will start to accumulate back but it'very slow. One thing that worked for me was multivitamins. I could see a change in a week. Not sure if it was proper burnout or something else (bad diet) though. The simptoms look the same.

TeMPOraL 3y ago

>> Burnout involves the loss of the capacity to relax, to “just do nothing”. What I find funny about this is that it would imply I've been burned out since I was 10 or 12 years old. "Just do nothing" was something I never considered possible for me, or desirable in general. For me the struggle was, and is, always about autonomy - being able to do what I want, instead of chores, homework, demands of parents, $dayjob, errands, demands of partner, etc.

xyzzy123 3y ago
There are days when I feel like a robot - I have almost no agency from morning until night. It really drags me down when it goes on for more than a few days consecutively. It's weird because my job is OK and I love my kids, and it's not that bad - I just feel like an NPC doing this day after day and want to "jump off the rails". Sometimes the only thing I can fall back on is that even if I can't choose what I'm doing I get to choose how I'm doing it.
- Tade0 3y ago
  I was in this state for the first few months after my child was born. I remember one internal dialogue from that time: -She woke up already. I barely had half an hour today to do something else than cleaning and that's only because I skipped some tasks. Where's my time off? -What do you mean where's your time off? This was your time off. It got better when I let go of my mid 30s childless person presumption of having time after work. Also it got better because my daughter is now two and a half and can focus on an activity for the 114 seconds at worst it takes me to use the toilet.
- pmoriarty 3y ago
  The vast majority of employees get paid to do something they would rather not do, had they a choice. They would rather be entertaining themselves, being with their families, relaxing, etc. Yet they have to work, and do things they don't want to do day after day, month after month, and year after year. On top of that they often have to pretend to like it, and to spend time with people they don't want to be with. It's even worse if they have to commute or not get enough sleep, or if they're not valued at work or don't feel they can make a difference. After a while, that takes its toll. Some can handle it, but some can't.