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> I hope we can relieve women of the pressure of motherhood this way. You should ask the mothers you know how they feel about that? The majority (i'd say the v

> I hope we can relieve women of the pressure of motherhood this way. You should ask the mothers you know how they feel about that? The majority (i'd say the vast majority), consider motherhood the most important and best thing in their lives. Plus, the only alternative is men? Who by definition cannot be "mothers". So you're describing being raise only by fathers. So.. now the suggestion is just adding pressure of fatherhood? lol > Maybe we can even develop more equitable societies where any gender can raise any children, or all genders will be expected to raise all children. All genders, in all cultures, do raise all children. That said, each likely plays a different role. Just imagine some hunter gatherer culture - men provide meat, teach their sons to hunt & fish too, teach their daughters to pick honorable men for husbands, maybe even find honorable men. Women, teach their children to clean animals, make clothes, make food & fires, etc. This tradition has largely stayed the same. In the first world, Women have changed their roles, as automation replaced the need for many of the tasks. Men have continued to provide a similar role. In both cases, I argue parents are increasingly teaching their children less directly; outsourcing it to "educators". That said, I think it's had detrimental effects on families and you can see that in the depression rates, competency rates, divorce rates, etc.

QuantumG 3y ago
[flagged]
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  There's nothing wrong with people who do want children! I just want to support women who also choose not to have children.
  - QuantumG 3y ago
    Don't worry, people made the same arguments for /every/ advancement in birth and childcare from Anesthesia to Velcro on nappies.
EatingWithForks 3y ago
> You should ask the mothers you know how they feel about that? The majority (i'd say the vast majority), consider motherhood the most important and best thing in their lives. Yes, I know many women of my age. They feel really, really pressured to be mothers even when they don't want to be. Several women I know literally had to cut people out of their lives due to verbal abuse trying to pressure them to be mothers! Every mother I know also has expressed how exhausting motherhood is and emphasized how it should be an entirely uncoerced choice. How many women do you speak to casually about this sort of thing?
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Hmm, I can see where women who disproportionately listen to, and believe, false propaganda about "how exhausting motherhood is" and haven't tried it, could be averse to taking on such a vocation. And nobody should be verbally abused about anything. It's a woman's prerogative to decide not to be a wife or mother. She doesn't need to engage in sexual relationships. And women are pressured to enter the workforce; in fact they're forced to take extensive education, enter the workforce, and to establish a career, and all that takes effort and resources that won't be invested in motherhood or family. So, it's understandable that women rarely hear about the joys of permanent, fruitful, faithful matrimony and motherhood, and that the prevailing winds should whisper into a woman's ear that motherhood is a drag, pregnancy is a horrific experience you'll never recover from, and the best thing to do is not let yourself be weighed down by the bonds of love and intimacy with a husband or children.
  - jubalfh 3y ago
    [dead]
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    It's weird you simultaneously say "its a woman's prerogative to decide not to be a wife or a mother" but also describe them as "...who listen to propaganda.." or "...the prevailing winds should whisper into a woman's ear...". Does she get to make her own decisions, fully educated on what is right for her, or does she not? I never said pregnancy is a disease, or that motherhood is a drag. I said I've spoken with mothers who have said motherhood should be uncoerced. I said I know women who have chosen not to have children and have needed to escape verbal abuse from people who pressure them, and I hope the ability to have children without a woman involved will societally lessen the pressure women have to be mothers. I want the only people who are mothers are people who want to be mothers, not people who feel that just because they are a woman they must also become a mother. This leads to really painful, desperately sad places psychologically for women who are infertile, have miscarriages, or lose their fertility through the natural aging process.
adrienne 3y ago
In point of fact, both men and women hunt (and always hunted) in hunter-gatherer societies, which were generally much more egalitarian than evopsych just-so stories would have you believe. Just one recent article that cites some studies: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/07/01/1184749528/men-are-hunters-women-are-gatherers-that-was-the-assumption-a-new-study-upends-i https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/07/01/1184749...

QuantumG 3y ago

[flagged]

EatingWithForks 3y ago
There's nothing wrong with people who do want children! I just want to support women who also choose not to have children.
- QuantumG 3y ago
  Don't worry, people made the same arguments for /every/ advancement in birth and childcare from Anesthesia to Velcro on nappies.

EatingWithForks 3y ago

> You should ask the mothers you know how they feel about that? The majority (i'd say the vast majority), consider motherhood the most important and best thing in their lives. Yes, I know many women of my age. They feel really, really pressured to be mothers even when they don't want to be. Several women I know literally had to cut people out of their lives due to verbal abuse trying to pressure them to be mothers! Every mother I know also has expressed how exhausting motherhood is and emphasized how it should be an entirely uncoerced choice. How many women do you speak to casually about this sort of thing?

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Hmm, I can see where women who disproportionately listen to, and believe, false propaganda about "how exhausting motherhood is" and haven't tried it, could be averse to taking on such a vocation. And nobody should be verbally abused about anything. It's a woman's prerogative to decide not to be a wife or mother. She doesn't need to engage in sexual relationships. And women are pressured to enter the workforce; in fact they're forced to take extensive education, enter the workforce, and to establish a career, and all that takes effort and resources that won't be invested in motherhood or family. So, it's understandable that women rarely hear about the joys of permanent, fruitful, faithful matrimony and motherhood, and that the prevailing winds should whisper into a woman's ear that motherhood is a drag, pregnancy is a horrific experience you'll never recover from, and the best thing to do is not let yourself be weighed down by the bonds of love and intimacy with a husband or children.
- jubalfh 3y ago
  [dead]
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  It's weird you simultaneously say "its a woman's prerogative to decide not to be a wife or a mother" but also describe them as "...who listen to propaganda.." or "...the prevailing winds should whisper into a woman's ear...". Does she get to make her own decisions, fully educated on what is right for her, or does she not? I never said pregnancy is a disease, or that motherhood is a drag. I said I've spoken with mothers who have said motherhood should be uncoerced. I said I know women who have chosen not to have children and have needed to escape verbal abuse from people who pressure them, and I hope the ability to have children without a woman involved will societally lessen the pressure women have to be mothers. I want the only people who are mothers are people who want to be mothers, not people who feel that just because they are a woman they must also become a mother. This leads to really painful, desperately sad places psychologically for women who are infertile, have miscarriages, or lose their fertility through the natural aging process.

adrienne 3y ago

In point of fact, both men and women hunt (and always hunted) in hunter-gatherer societies, which were generally much more egalitarian than evopsych just-so stories would have you believe. Just one recent article that cites some studies: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/07/01/1184749528/men-are-hunters-women-are-gatherers-that-was-the-assumption-a-new-study-upends-i https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/07/01/1184749...