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I hope we can relieve women of the pressure of motherhood this way. Maybe we can even develop more equitable societies where any gender can raise any children,

I hope we can relieve women of the pressure of motherhood this way. Maybe we can even develop more equitable societies where any gender can raise any children, or all genders will be expected to raise all children. Or, worst case, only poor people will be expected to raise children at all, and raising children will become a job/career bimodally distributed to the very poor earning almost nothing raising workers to fuel capitalism and the very wealthy developing dynasties to rule over the poor with.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Conversely, have we considered that motherhood is a joy and a privilege for women, that it is the most sublime fulfillment of their biological design and destiny, to bear and feed their young, to bond with them, to hold and touch them, to care for them, no matter what? Have we considered, that despite the "pangs of childbirth" that are a very real part of the experience, that conception, pregnancy, and childbirth are natural processes, not diseases or disorders to be eliminated, and that mankind has been well-equipped to accompany women and support them every step of the way, no matter what obstacles they face, that they retain their dignity and continue to fulfill their vocation of motherhood?
- ksenzee 3y ago
  If women went around telling everyone what we thought about testicles, we’d get laughed right out of the public square. And yet men don’t hesitate to give their opinions about the process of childbirth, about which they know nothing firsthand.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
    - ksenzee 3y ago
      Nowhere in those Wikipedia articles (or in anything else I’ve read on logical fallacies) is there any support for the idea that secondhand information is more valuable than firsthand information. I’m honestly curious why you think your opinions on childbirth are so valuable that they’re worth posting on Hacker News. Are you a researcher? An obstetrician? Because what it looks like to me is a JavaScript programmer who’s never written Rust giving their opinions on the borrow checker. I don’t deny them the right to have opinions on the borrow checker. I do question whether those opinions add anything to the conversation on this site.
- kevinventullo 3y ago
  Have you considered talking to an actual woman about this? Let me know when you find one who would describe childbirth as “sublime”.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    Okay, done. Would you like a list? What's your email's attachment size limit?
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    I've met plenty. They didn't use the word "sublime" but definitely shared the sentiment expressed in the grandparent post. I'm currently dating one who told me to my face that having my children is her dream.
- panic 3y ago
  This comment is misogynistic. Obviously a lot of women enjoy being mothers, but to say that it's a universal biological destiny is simply wrong. Women can participate in society and find fulfillment in many ways, regardless of whether or not they have kids.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - panic 3y ago
      Your words were "biological design and destiny". It's hard not to read that as saying that a woman's body is designed to have kids and that having kids is her destiny.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Where did I write that it is universal?
        drewbug01 3y ago
        You didn’t have to, because you used “women” as a collective noun throughout; the implication is exceedingly clear.
  - ipv4dhcp 3y ago
    meh, seems unlikely, but i guess in some rare cases that may be possible.
    - EatingWithForks 3y ago
      Please reconsider this notion that it's rare for women to have fulfillment in life without children. It's really hurtful to women who have trouble conceiving or have had miscarriages (miscarriages are shockingly common) to have the added societal pressure. I hope you never express this attitude within earshot of a woman who is experiencing reproductive pain in her life.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  I think describing motherhood as "the most sublime fulfilment of their biological design and destiny" is the sort of language many women I know to be extremely toxic to them. Especially women I know who are infertile, struggled to have children, or have lost children to miscarriage. Please reconsider this. Women are much more than their fertility on every level-- biologically and otherwise! Additionally, I never called motherhood a disease or disorder to be eliminated. I only said I hoped the pressure on women to be mothers would lessen! You seem to be projecting here.
- mplewis 3y ago
  Absolutely not. What right do you have to tell women what motherhood means to them? Mind your own business.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - ksenzee 3y ago
      You’re content to listen to what we tell you? Great. Then let me tell you, as a mother of two, that bearing children is not “the most sublime fulfillment” of my biological “design” or my “destiny.” I love my children to pieces. Being a parent is the best thing I have ever done with my life. But if I could have done it without the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth, I’d have a bigger family. I mourn the children I didn’t get to have because my body couldn’t do it. If my granddaughters get to skip some or all of that, I’ll be thrilled for them. Some mothers find pregnancy and childbirth to be a deep, sublime, spiritual experience, the best thing they’ve ever done. Some mothers are miserable every minute of it: sick, traumatized, afraid. You do not have the right to speak for all of us when you’re quoting just those of us whose experience reinforces your opinions about how the world should work.
- adrienne 3y ago
  Many people DIED giving birth, dude. Many of them STILL die. Maternal mortality rates, for most of history, matched or exceeded the rates at which soldiers died in wars! This take is breathtakingly misogynist and also inaccurate as hell.
- cooper_ganglia 3y ago
  While I’m usually all for technological advances, if a woman wanted to pursue this route, that would be a dealbreaker for me. This feels like some awful dystopian nightmare tech. This technology feels rife for abuse in building armies or company-grown and owned “employees” that function as property of the corp. Artificial wombs may be cool for people who are otherwise infertile, but to see people so quick to replace natural childbirth with this to “relieve women of the pressure of motherhood.” This feels like something that people who want a larger labor market would love. The population grows, and they never even have to have the women stop working! We’ve gone too far in the direction of fetishizing work in the USA. We shouldn’t be fighting for women’s work to be equal work with men, we should be fighting for the restoration of the family unit via increased wages that can support a family with only 1 salary. Propaganda has made us instead try to have both parents work full time jobs and raise the kids via daycare and TikTok, because that’s what makes a woman strong and independent. It’s sad to see people fight against their interests.
lettergram 3y ago
> I hope we can relieve women of the pressure of motherhood this way. You should ask the mothers you know how they feel about that? The majority (i'd say the vast majority), consider motherhood the most important and best thing in their lives. Plus, the only alternative is men? Who by definition cannot be "mothers". So you're describing being raise only by fathers. So.. now the suggestion is just adding pressure of fatherhood? lol > Maybe we can even develop more equitable societies where any gender can raise any children, or all genders will be expected to raise all children. All genders, in all cultures, do raise all children. That said, each likely plays a different role. Just imagine some hunter gatherer culture - men provide meat, teach their sons to hunt & fish too, teach their daughters to pick honorable men for husbands, maybe even find honorable men. Women, teach their children to clean animals, make clothes, make food & fires, etc. This tradition has largely stayed the same. In the first world, Women have changed their roles, as automation replaced the need for many of the tasks. Men have continued to provide a similar role. In both cases, I argue parents are increasingly teaching their children less directly; outsourcing it to "educators". That said, I think it's had detrimental effects on families and you can see that in the depression rates, competency rates, divorce rates, etc.
- QuantumG 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    There's nothing wrong with people who do want children! I just want to support women who also choose not to have children.
    - QuantumG 3y ago
      Don't worry, people made the same arguments for /every/ advancement in birth and childcare from Anesthesia to Velcro on nappies.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  > You should ask the mothers you know how they feel about that? The majority (i'd say the vast majority), consider motherhood the most important and best thing in their lives. Yes, I know many women of my age. They feel really, really pressured to be mothers even when they don't want to be. Several women I know literally had to cut people out of their lives due to verbal abuse trying to pressure them to be mothers! Every mother I know also has expressed how exhausting motherhood is and emphasized how it should be an entirely uncoerced choice. How many women do you speak to casually about this sort of thing?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

Conversely, have we considered that motherhood is a joy and a privilege for women, that it is the most sublime fulfillment of their biological design and destiny, to bear and feed their young, to bond with them, to hold and touch them, to care for them, no matter what? Have we considered, that despite the "pangs of childbirth" that are a very real part of the experience, that conception, pregnancy, and childbirth are natural processes, not diseases or disorders to be eliminated, and that mankind has been well-equipped to accompany women and support them every step of the way, no matter what obstacles they face, that they retain their dignity and continue to fulfill their vocation of motherhood?

ksenzee 3y ago
If women went around telling everyone what we thought about testicles, we’d get laughed right out of the public square. And yet men don’t hesitate to give their opinions about the process of childbirth, about which they know nothing firsthand.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
  - ksenzee 3y ago
    Nowhere in those Wikipedia articles (or in anything else I’ve read on logical fallacies) is there any support for the idea that secondhand information is more valuable than firsthand information. I’m honestly curious why you think your opinions on childbirth are so valuable that they’re worth posting on Hacker News. Are you a researcher? An obstetrician? Because what it looks like to me is a JavaScript programmer who’s never written Rust giving their opinions on the borrow checker. I don’t deny them the right to have opinions on the borrow checker. I do question whether those opinions add anything to the conversation on this site.
kevinventullo 3y ago
Have you considered talking to an actual woman about this? Let me know when you find one who would describe childbirth as “sublime”.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Okay, done. Would you like a list? What's your email's attachment size limit?
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  I've met plenty. They didn't use the word "sublime" but definitely shared the sentiment expressed in the grandparent post. I'm currently dating one who told me to my face that having my children is her dream.
panic 3y ago
This comment is misogynistic. Obviously a lot of women enjoy being mothers, but to say that it's a universal biological destiny is simply wrong. Women can participate in society and find fulfillment in many ways, regardless of whether or not they have kids.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - panic 3y ago
    Your words were "biological design and destiny". It's hard not to read that as saying that a woman's body is designed to have kids and that having kids is her destiny.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      Where did I write that it is universal?
      - drewbug01 3y ago
        You didn’t have to, because you used “women” as a collective noun throughout; the implication is exceedingly clear.
- ipv4dhcp 3y ago
  meh, seems unlikely, but i guess in some rare cases that may be possible.
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    Please reconsider this notion that it's rare for women to have fulfillment in life without children. It's really hurtful to women who have trouble conceiving or have had miscarriages (miscarriages are shockingly common) to have the added societal pressure. I hope you never express this attitude within earshot of a woman who is experiencing reproductive pain in her life.
EatingWithForks 3y ago
I think describing motherhood as "the most sublime fulfilment of their biological design and destiny" is the sort of language many women I know to be extremely toxic to them. Especially women I know who are infertile, struggled to have children, or have lost children to miscarriage. Please reconsider this. Women are much more than their fertility on every level-- biologically and otherwise! Additionally, I never called motherhood a disease or disorder to be eliminated. I only said I hoped the pressure on women to be mothers would lessen! You seem to be projecting here.
mplewis 3y ago
Absolutely not. What right do you have to tell women what motherhood means to them? Mind your own business.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ksenzee 3y ago
    You’re content to listen to what we tell you? Great. Then let me tell you, as a mother of two, that bearing children is not “the most sublime fulfillment” of my biological “design” or my “destiny.” I love my children to pieces. Being a parent is the best thing I have ever done with my life. But if I could have done it without the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth, I’d have a bigger family. I mourn the children I didn’t get to have because my body couldn’t do it. If my granddaughters get to skip some or all of that, I’ll be thrilled for them. Some mothers find pregnancy and childbirth to be a deep, sublime, spiritual experience, the best thing they’ve ever done. Some mothers are miserable every minute of it: sick, traumatized, afraid. You do not have the right to speak for all of us when you’re quoting just those of us whose experience reinforces your opinions about how the world should work.
adrienne 3y ago
Many people DIED giving birth, dude. Many of them STILL die. Maternal mortality rates, for most of history, matched or exceeded the rates at which soldiers died in wars! This take is breathtakingly misogynist and also inaccurate as hell.
cooper_ganglia 3y ago
While I’m usually all for technological advances, if a woman wanted to pursue this route, that would be a dealbreaker for me. This feels like some awful dystopian nightmare tech. This technology feels rife for abuse in building armies or company-grown and owned “employees” that function as property of the corp. Artificial wombs may be cool for people who are otherwise infertile, but to see people so quick to replace natural childbirth with this to “relieve women of the pressure of motherhood.” This feels like something that people who want a larger labor market would love. The population grows, and they never even have to have the women stop working! We’ve gone too far in the direction of fetishizing work in the USA. We shouldn’t be fighting for women’s work to be equal work with men, we should be fighting for the restoration of the family unit via increased wages that can support a family with only 1 salary. Propaganda has made us instead try to have both parents work full time jobs and raise the kids via daycare and TikTok, because that’s what makes a woman strong and independent. It’s sad to see people fight against their interests.

lettergram 3y ago

> I hope we can relieve women of the pressure of motherhood this way. You should ask the mothers you know how they feel about that? The majority (i'd say the vast majority), consider motherhood the most important and best thing in their lives. Plus, the only alternative is men? Who by definition cannot be "mothers". So you're describing being raise only by fathers. So.. now the suggestion is just adding pressure of fatherhood? lol > Maybe we can even develop more equitable societies where any gender can raise any children, or all genders will be expected to raise all children. All genders, in all cultures, do raise all children. That said, each likely plays a different role. Just imagine some hunter gatherer culture - men provide meat, teach their sons to hunt & fish too, teach their daughters to pick honorable men for husbands, maybe even find honorable men. Women, teach their children to clean animals, make clothes, make food & fires, etc. This tradition has largely stayed the same. In the first world, Women have changed their roles, as automation replaced the need for many of the tasks. Men have continued to provide a similar role. In both cases, I argue parents are increasingly teaching their children less directly; outsourcing it to "educators". That said, I think it's had detrimental effects on families and you can see that in the depression rates, competency rates, divorce rates, etc.

QuantumG 3y ago
[flagged]
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  There's nothing wrong with people who do want children! I just want to support women who also choose not to have children.
  - QuantumG 3y ago
    Don't worry, people made the same arguments for /every/ advancement in birth and childcare from Anesthesia to Velcro on nappies.
EatingWithForks 3y ago
> You should ask the mothers you know how they feel about that? The majority (i'd say the vast majority), consider motherhood the most important and best thing in their lives. Yes, I know many women of my age. They feel really, really pressured to be mothers even when they don't want to be. Several women I know literally had to cut people out of their lives due to verbal abuse trying to pressure them to be mothers! Every mother I know also has expressed how exhausting motherhood is and emphasized how it should be an entirely uncoerced choice. How many women do you speak to casually about this sort of thing?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]