3 ms·

It sure was fantasy to believe star trek universe wouldn’t have currency. It’s the one thing that irked me about the st universe, and part of why I loved Quark.

It sure was fantasy to believe star trek universe wouldn’t have currency. It’s the one thing that irked me about the st universe, and part of why I loved Quark. He allowed the show to explore some of the ramifications of a universe that clearly still has scarce resources that need to be allocated. He almost managed to convince me that the federation could exist as a centrally planned militocracy without money, by showing where economics breaks down at the edges of the federation.

throwaway60707 3y ago
IMHO the premise of Star Trek economy is that all needs of an ordinary person can be fulfilled so cheaply it doesn't make sense to meter. The replicator uses a relatively minimal amount of energy. They still need to allocate resources - and even trade them among themselves and with others - but there's no need for an internal currency, they can power entire planets with their antimatter reactors using just a very small amount of fuel. Even the starships that are bending spacetime itself all the time are refueled only very occasionally, synthesizing some food and houses is nothing compared to that. The only time when their economy breaks is when they're in an active warzone - and frankly, currency as we know it breaks down in a warzone too, you better have some cigarettes, food or weapons if you want to trade.
- krapp 3y ago
  It's weird that so many other species in Star Trek also have replicators, antimatter, transporters, warp drive, etc. But somehow only humans managed to create a post-scarcity utopia out of it.
  - throwaway60707 3y ago
    At least all the other species within Federation did the same, many of them before the Federation even existed or before humans did it, though many of them got Federation help after they developed the warp drive, thus eliminating the Prime Directive limit. Then you have the species whose backstory is imperialism or fascism, that control many other species that only have lesser technology. In some episodes, but especially in the books that are considered canon, you can see them influencing (slowing or outright destroying) the development of sufficient technology of their vassals so they remain dependent on the masters. But the masters themselves (Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons...) have the same post-scarcity economy as the Federation for their "full citizens". What's interesting is the case of Bajor in DS9, which is developing the post-scarcity utopia after the Cardassians left them in ruins; with Federation help but not too much of it because they want to be independent.
  - HelloNurse 3y ago
    I'd assume almost all Star Trek civilizations have their own "post-scarcity utopia", but it could be incomplete and/or not quite an utopia because of racism (e.g. Romulans), slavery, problematic culture (e.g. Klingon expected lifespan), villains, catastrophes and other Enterprise-level trouble. Good guys like the Vulcans seem to have only personal and psychological problems, not material ones.
sneak 3y ago
How did Quark get the prime retail location on the promenade though? Why is plain simple Garak back in the corner? The dirty secret is that Starfleet is actually a totalitarian military dictatorship, on the ground and in the air. That's how they got to take over the Palace of Fine Arts.
- throwaway60707 3y ago
  > How did Quark get the prime retail location on the promenade though? Sisko asked Quark just before he left to remain where he was since the Cardassian occupation so there was some life on the promenade. > The dirty secret is that Starfleet is actually a totalitarian military dictatorship, on the ground and in the air. That's how they got to take over the Palace of Fine Arts. Starfleet is a paramilitary organization and Deep Space 9 is a military installation under their control (it has sufficient firepower to defend itself against many of the strongest warships), just like the starships - that's no secret nor is it dirty. There can be civilian elements on military bases. IRL there are civilians living within military areas in some countries - governed/commanded by the military. But SF doesn't control the Federation, nor Earth or other civilian settlements. There is an episode where Sisko and Odo thwart the attempt of a rogue Starfleet admiral to get Earth under SF/his control.
giaour 3y ago
> He allowed the show to explore some of the ramifications of a universe that clearly still has scarce resources that need to be allocated. I always thought it was interesting that the scarce resources you could get at Quark's were non-material (companionship, holodeck experiences, games, etc). The only defining characteristic of the substance the Ferengi use as currency is that it can't be produced by a replicator, which implies that everything else (including all the expensive bottles behind Quark's bar) could be.
0xBDB 3y ago
I never had too much trouble with this because money has high overhead. If you only have a small number of items that are scarce enough to be rival goods (planets, starships, artisinal labor, concert tickets, whatever) then you will probably barter for them, often in favors and debt. Ian M. Banks does a good bit on this in one of the Culture books (Look to Windward, I think) where the Culture "reinvents money" in the form of IOUs over access to a particularly popular live event. I did have a problem with the retconning where the Federation was never even partially capitalist at all, because The Original Series is full of allusions to the fact that it is: An immortal being (Flynt) who buys his planet outright, miners who make more profits once they start working with the Horta, etc., etc.

throwaway60707 3y ago

IMHO the premise of Star Trek economy is that all needs of an ordinary person can be fulfilled so cheaply it doesn't make sense to meter. The replicator uses a relatively minimal amount of energy. They still need to allocate resources - and even trade them among themselves and with others - but there's no need for an internal currency, they can power entire planets with their antimatter reactors using just a very small amount of fuel. Even the starships that are bending spacetime itself all the time are refueled only very occasionally, synthesizing some food and houses is nothing compared to that. The only time when their economy breaks is when they're in an active warzone - and frankly, currency as we know it breaks down in a warzone too, you better have some cigarettes, food or weapons if you want to trade.

krapp 3y ago
It's weird that so many other species in Star Trek also have replicators, antimatter, transporters, warp drive, etc. But somehow only humans managed to create a post-scarcity utopia out of it.
- throwaway60707 3y ago
  At least all the other species within Federation did the same, many of them before the Federation even existed or before humans did it, though many of them got Federation help after they developed the warp drive, thus eliminating the Prime Directive limit. Then you have the species whose backstory is imperialism or fascism, that control many other species that only have lesser technology. In some episodes, but especially in the books that are considered canon, you can see them influencing (slowing or outright destroying) the development of sufficient technology of their vassals so they remain dependent on the masters. But the masters themselves (Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons...) have the same post-scarcity economy as the Federation for their "full citizens". What's interesting is the case of Bajor in DS9, which is developing the post-scarcity utopia after the Cardassians left them in ruins; with Federation help but not too much of it because they want to be independent.
- HelloNurse 3y ago
  I'd assume almost all Star Trek civilizations have their own "post-scarcity utopia", but it could be incomplete and/or not quite an utopia because of racism (e.g. Romulans), slavery, problematic culture (e.g. Klingon expected lifespan), villains, catastrophes and other Enterprise-level trouble. Good guys like the Vulcans seem to have only personal and psychological problems, not material ones.

sneak 3y ago

How did Quark get the prime retail location on the promenade though? Why is plain simple Garak back in the corner? The dirty secret is that Starfleet is actually a totalitarian military dictatorship, on the ground and in the air. That's how they got to take over the Palace of Fine Arts.

throwaway60707 3y ago
> How did Quark get the prime retail location on the promenade though? Sisko asked Quark just before he left to remain where he was since the Cardassian occupation so there was some life on the promenade. > The dirty secret is that Starfleet is actually a totalitarian military dictatorship, on the ground and in the air. That's how they got to take over the Palace of Fine Arts. Starfleet is a paramilitary organization and Deep Space 9 is a military installation under their control (it has sufficient firepower to defend itself against many of the strongest warships), just like the starships - that's no secret nor is it dirty. There can be civilian elements on military bases. IRL there are civilians living within military areas in some countries - governed/commanded by the military. But SF doesn't control the Federation, nor Earth or other civilian settlements. There is an episode where Sisko and Odo thwart the attempt of a rogue Starfleet admiral to get Earth under SF/his control.

giaour 3y ago

> He allowed the show to explore some of the ramifications of a universe that clearly still has scarce resources that need to be allocated. I always thought it was interesting that the scarce resources you could get at Quark's were non-material (companionship, holodeck experiences, games, etc). The only defining characteristic of the substance the Ferengi use as currency is that it can't be produced by a replicator, which implies that everything else (including all the expensive bottles behind Quark's bar) could be.

0xBDB 3y ago

I never had too much trouble with this because money has high overhead. If you only have a small number of items that are scarce enough to be rival goods (planets, starships, artisinal labor, concert tickets, whatever) then you will probably barter for them, often in favors and debt. Ian M. Banks does a good bit on this in one of the Culture books (Look to Windward, I think) where the Culture "reinvents money" in the form of IOUs over access to a particularly popular live event. I did have a problem with the retconning where the Federation was never even partially capitalist at all, because The Original Series is full of allusions to the fact that it is: An immortal being (Flynt) who buys his planet outright, miners who make more profits once they start working with the Horta, etc., etc.